Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Engine for 601XL
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

mhilderbrand(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I thought about doing the same thing, but what0 happens when you try and sell it?? This may have an impact on re-sell value.0 

 mike

 [quote]   ---

tom-orsborn(at)houston.rr
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Franklin was showing (or some company was showing their engines) at Oshkosh this week.  I didn’t check them out closely, but I noticed a half dozen six cylinder engines in their booth when I walked by.  I didn’t see any fours though the PZL distributor has had them in previous years.  They have a web site, http://www.franklinengines.com/.  The six cylinder engine is discussed on the Zenith 801 site as an option.  They also had a forum which had a subtitle along the lines of “Franklin is back”.  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing

 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:33 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Engine for 601XL  

  

     

Can't say I agree with your A&P, there are plenty of sixty year old Franklins still flying in Stinsons, Seabees & Bellancas, newer ones flying in Maules since the early seventies.  The biggest question is whether they are still in business.  This is all hearsay:  PZL in Poland who made Franklins was supposedly bought by P & W.  They didn't intend to continue the piston engine line.  Has it been sold?  Have they continued?  I don't know.  I have a PZL 125 4 cyl on the shelf here at the plant.  We bought it to re-engine our '59 C150.  Everyone who has NEVER spoken to the FAA at our airport has told us that "field approvals" are "impossible" to get, so that project is on the back burner until we get some more time.  I have attached some pics of the engine since most have never seen one.  This one has a earlier version sump.  I have a bit of info regarding these engines and would try to answer questions, but please ask one question at a time, I'm at work and can't write a histoy.  Regarding their design they have many interesting features including a fluid vibration damper built into the flywheel within the accessory case.  

    

   

    

Regards,  

    

   

    

Randy L. Thwing, Las   Vegas  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

   

    

Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Engine for 601XL  

    

   

    

The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago.  He stated to me then that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another...  He said they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it...  Whether or not this is true, I'm not 100% sure...  If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this might be something to check out first..  

    

   

    

Thanks,  

    

   

    

Randy

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Yes, it will have an effect on resale value, as0 fresh uncertified engines won't bring as much money as fresh certifed0 engines...  It would be the same thing when you start to sell the0 "homebuilt", "uncertified" airframe it's attached to...  You sell0 exactly what it is.  What you have... nothing more, nothing0 less...

  

 There was a guy who had an O-235 who had built it0 the same way I'm planning and made it uncertified...  He wanted to sell0 it...  I was going to buy it, but another guy beat me out by one day... I0 was one of 4 people who were in-line to buy this engine too..  SO there are0 buyers out there...

  

 I'll also bet that it would be easier to sell a0 fresh, good running, uncertified O-235, than it would to sell any auto0 conversion in the same shape...

  

 Thanks,

  

 Randy

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

David,



I don’t see an in flight failure of an auto conversion to be worse than 

any other engine. The challenge of getting an auto conversion right in 

the first place is more difficult, but the auto conversion guys are 

doing us a favor and should be encouraged. Automotive conversions are 

one reason “aircraft engines” don’t cost more than they do. They have 

competition. Every auto conversion that is successful provides incentive 

for the conventional aircraft engine suppliers to compete, if 

indirectly, against lower prices.



I wouldn’t drive an air-cooled car and don’t find nostalgia for the old 

air-cooled motorcycle. These are the same reasons that I like the muted 

sound of a water-cooled conversion. I know you’re going to see a lot 

more of them in the future because of fuel issues.



I do like the Corvair and the Jabaru. They are the Cadillac of what’s 

out there right now, but the Subaru is still a great value if you want 

to work through the basics.



Respectfully,



Larry McFarland – 601HDS 85 hours Stratus Subaru (painting in progress) 

at www.macsmachine.com

David X wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I cringe every time I hear of an in-flight failure of an auto conversion. If you plan to use an auto conversion, I'd stick to reputable VW, Subaru or Mazda engine converters with a good track record in aviation. The guy a hanger down from me is putting a supersharged RAM Subaru in his Glasair. Nice looking engine with a nice layout.



Downside to the 912S, Subaru and Wankel is need for water cooling. It's just one more factor to deal with ... but minor in my opinion.

--------

Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S

DO NOT ARCHIVE

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Hello Randy,

   

  Not having any first hand experience with the Franklin engine...  The "throw away" idea COULD be more in costs than in quality of the engine.   

   

  Will explain:  Can be a very good quality engine, sold at very low profit price,  that the cost of the parts plus labor and time down of the plane could make more afordable to buy a new one at the overhaul time (could be from 1,000 to 2,500 hrs  I DONT know).

   

  Same happens with car accidents and engine/transmission rebuilts,  if the car is not a "Classic" or one you like a lot.  is better to sell it as junk and buy a new/used one than go to all the process of repair...  There are cars and trucks so GOOD that when is time to rebuild the engine, everything else is falling apart and there is no case to rebuild...  

   

  Airplanes are diferent,  because we (pilots, builders and mechanics) dont let then down with the mantainace...  But the example/compare could work a little 

   

  Notice the capital letters, no personal direct experience with Franklin, but what I have read in internet...

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

  Do not archive.



Randy Bryant <randy(at)n344rb.com> wrote:

  [quote]        The subject of the Franklin engine came up in a unrelated conversation between myself and an A&P friend a few weeks ago.  He stated to me then that the Franklin engines are "throw away" engines, meaning when they need to be rebuilt, you just throw it away and buy another...  He said they didn't even make an overhaul kit for it...  Whether or  not this is true, I'm not 100% sure...  If you are planning to buy a Franklin, this might be something to check out first..

   

  Thanks,

   

  Randy

  XL - Wings - Plans Only

  http://www.n344rb.com

   

  [quote]  ---

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Could be...  I was just going on what he said0 about them not offering an overhaul kit... NOW, this could be a different case0 now since I've seen emails here today about the company being bought out, under0 new management...etc...  Matter of fact, I'm hoping this is the case.. I0 sure would like to see a good reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price0 bracket...  Competition is a good thing!

  

 Thanks,

  

 Randy

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Engine for 601XL

I can't argue a whole lot with you, Larry. I certainly do see a value for all of us because of those who step out of the mainstream. 



I will say that one-off, one-time personal conversions are probably not going to help the industry much as compared to reputable rebuilders/distributors who make it their mission to perfect the conversion and retain an institutional knowledge.  As you say ... the competition drives the price down and provides a viable alternative for the first-time builder. The one-offs are not going to be much competition to the mainstream and tend simply to drive up accident/incident statistics.



Iâ€™m not bashing Subaru owners or any other alternative engine user. Please, everyone, don't rip me a new one if that's what you think I'm saying. 



I'm simply reiterating one man's humble, perhaps uninformed opinion, that if you are a first time builder or a first time experimental engine user ... try to stick to alternative engines with good track records modified by reputable rebuilders/converters ... rather than just popping in the Subaru engine from the car you crashed last year. 



Reminds me of the debate I was in months ago with a guy who wanted to build a 500â€™ air strip in his back yard for his CH701 (trees at each end of the 500â€™ strip). 



I dunno, maybe I'll get slammed for saying something that seems common sense. How dare me!





 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  the auto conversion guys are 

doing us a favor and should be encouraged

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

You want dependability, go to RAM Performance.com

Ron builds one heck of an engine.  Look at his specs.

The only part of his engine that is Subaru is the block.

100, 115, 130, 140 hp-All blueprinted, balanced, and lots of high-end parts

in the engine.  He also has a complete firewall forward package.   This guy

has been at it a long time and knows what he's doing.



Joe Gardner/Zenith 601 XL refit N101HD

---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Hi Larry,



I guess I want to take the other side of the competition argument.



I don't think the big engine companies like TCM and whoever makes 

Lycoming engines really notice when a home builder does a successful 

auto conversion.  I am learning the hard way that these big companies 

are not oriented toward home builders.  We only buy one engine at a 

time, and generally take more effort than the big companies would 

find justified by such a small sale.



After trying to get even a smidgen of information about the new 

IO-240 from TCM I am convinced they really are not interested in 

selling me an engine.  They did tell me if I sent them a check they 

would send me an engine, but they couldn't even supply me with a data 

sheet on the engine.  They do have an 800 number for information, but 

it seems to be permanently off hook.



Other companies like Jabiru and Rotax have distributors or 

departments that go to the trouble to deal with individual 

builders.  They offer FWF kits and good support for a single engine 

sale.  It is these sorts of companies that might notice a lost sale 

because of a successful auto conversion.  However, these sales groups 

already have some competition from the big boys and each other.



The other side of the whole argument is that people who get personal 

pleasure and education from converting an auto engine for use in 

their home built plane are doing just what the whole program is meant 

to do.  They are getting involved in aviation and also learning a lot 

and having a good time all together.  This is worthwhile in my book.



I applaud those who go to the trouble to build their own 

engine.  This might come as a surprise to some listers considering 

some of my previous posts on this subject.  My only problem with one 

particular group of conversion advocates is they seem to have made 

their choice for misguided reasons.



Paul

XL fuselage



 	  Quote: 	
		  Automotive conversions are one reason "aircraft engines" don't cost 

more than they do. They have competition. Every auto conversion that 

is successful provides incentive for the conventional aircraft 

engine suppliers to compete, if indirectly, against lower prices.


	


-

leinad(at)direcway.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Paul,

 That isn't quite correct.  The "typical"  conversion as described by William Wynne provides more power than an  0-200.  If anyone wants exact performance numbers all they have to do is go  to: www.flycorvair.com.  It's all  there.

 While economics is one of the reasons some of us  have chosen Corvair, it's not the only reason.

 I like the fact that unlike most auto conversions,  the typical Corvair conversion gets less HP as an aircraft engine than it did as  a car engine.  Most of the engines used were 110 HP in the car while some  were turbo charged and pumping out 180+ HP.  The conversion I'm building  will put out 100 HP at 2800 RPM.

 A lot has been said about the lack of corvair  reliability, especially as it relates to broken crankshafts, however, this issue  was almost unheard of in 40 years of corvair auto conversions until  recently.   Most of these recent failures were from folks pushing  the limits, by building more powerful engines, increasing displacement and other  "expirements".  My hat is off to them.  They are the real  expirementers.  I'm just building a plane and an engine with proven track  records.

 Dan Dempsey

 [quote]   ---

leinad(at)direcway.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

David,

Do you cringe when ever you hear about the in-flight failure of 30,000 

dollar Lycoming?  Do you think this doesn't happen?  A while back there was 

a rash of broken cranks on O-360s. As I recall it forced a recall.

Do not archive.

Dan



---

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

A few years back a builder in Maryland (Wheaton and Salisbury) named Jim

Burkholder built and flew a 601 with a Franklin engine.  I saw the plane at

Sun-N-Fun one year.   I've lost track of him, but I suspect that his email

address is in the archives or that he could be found in the telephone

directory for a reference on the Franklin engine.  He bought when there was

a dealer in Winchester, Virginia.



Jeff Davidson



Do not archive



--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Hi Dan,



 Thanks for writing.



 When I spoke of performance, I meant to speak about aircraft performance rather than engine performance on a test stand.



 I don't have enough information to have a real opinion, but I have heard a few comments from real airplane builders that the speed numbers for CH601HDS planes are about 50% higher with Jabiru 3300 installations than with Corvair installations.  This might be a reflection of the actual airplanes rather than the engines, but it is all I have to consider.



 Aircraft performance comes from a combination of actual engine horse power (as measured on a dynamometer) along with propeller selection and weight.  I have never heard of a Corvair conversion that could compete with a real aircraft engine like the Jabiru.  I am not sure about the Lycoming O-235, but the numbers given on ZAC's web site indicate it gets considerably more cruise speed than the numbers given by list members who have actually spoken about their performance with Corvair installations.



 Best regards,



 Paul

 XL Fuselage



 

 At 06:42 PM 7/31/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Paul,

 That isn't quite correct.  The "typical" conversion as described by William Wynne provides more power than an 0-200.

mtherr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I found that one of my friend has a Franklin engine he

used in an Emeraude aircraft.  He really liked it. I

did a top overhaul at 800 hours and it costed next to

nothing (he only had the cylinders honed, did a valve

job and changed the rings... no need to resleeve the

cylinders (sleeves were available at 60$ each at that

time, 80$ now)).  He bought the US version when it was

sold as a do it yourself kit.



The engine is rated for 1500 hours.



Michel

--- Randy Bryant <randy(at)n344rb.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Could be...  I was just going on what he said about

 them not offering an overhaul kit... NOW, this could

 be a different case now since I've seen emails here

 today about the company being bought out, under new

 management...etc...  Matter of fact, I'm hoping this

 is the case.. I sure would like to see a good

 reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price bracket... 

 Competition is a good thing!

 

 Thanks,


	


----------------------------

Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ

  http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601

  http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby

  http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby



__________________________________________________

rhartwig11(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Paul,

Things are going very smooth in the discussion of engine conversions, but

one reason things get nasty is when someone makes a comment like, "My

only problem with one particular group of conversion advocates is they

seem to have made their choice for misguided reasons."   I hope that my

choice of Jab 2200 for the 701 is well guided.

(Also.......I bought some of the camouflage ScotchBrite, but can't seem

to find it.)

Rich Hartwig

Waunakee, WI

rhartwig11(at)juno.com

mtherr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Don't be too much excited! This is NOT a 6900$ engine.

 At that price, it is not equiped.  It needs the

magnetos (1300), carburetor (1000?), plugs (120$),

plug wires (160$), starter (500$), etc.  I would call

it a 10 000$ or 11 000$ engine excluding FWF package

(mount, air box, cooler, etc)



Michel

--- Randy Bryant <randy(at)n344rb.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Could be...  I was just going on what he said about

 them not offering an overhaul kit... NOW, this could

 be a different case now since I've seen emails here

 today about the company being bought out, under new

 management...etc...  Matter of fact, I'm hoping this

 is the case.. I sure would like to see a good

 reliable NEW engine in the $6900 price bracket... 

 Competition is a good thing!

 

 Thanks,

 

 Randy

 Do Not Archive


	




----------------------------

Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ

  http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601

  http://www.zenithair.com/bldrlist/profiles/mthobby

  http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby



__________________________________________________

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Engine for 601XL

The cringe factor comes from the bad rap given home builders because of an incautious few. The guy who popped in the Subaru engine from his car he crashed last year, for example. It makes the rest look bad ... like their all crazy and out to kill everyone (because many inevitably crash).



I've seen some Honda conversions, for example, with a backup fuel pump, and dual electronic ignition ... but only one set of plugs and one carb and no track record running 100LL. The engine was modified to provide some amount of added safety, which goes part way toward making it a "real" aircraft engine. This engine needed more development, in my opinion ... not something I'd fly. I'm glad there is a distributor behind the product working to improve it to the point that someone like me might buy it.



On the other hand, I've seen Subaru conversions proven on 100LL, with dual ignition, dual set of plugs, dual carbs, carb heat, double accessory belts and a backup fuel pump. It was a kit from a reputable distributor who took the time to test every component and provide good support (according to the owner of the aircraft who built both engine and airplane). That's a setup I'd fly and have some faith in.



Aviation has a long track record of safety and redundancy that aught not be thrown out the window because we're "experimenting" with new engines. I think it's great to experiment, actually ... but I cringe to see engines with no redundancy for no better reason than time and bucks. If you're going to do it, do it right or don't do it at all.



 	  leinad(at)direcway.com wrote: 	
		  Do you cringe when ever you hear about the in-flight failure of 30,000 dollar Lycoming?  Do you think this doesn't happen?  A while back there was a rash of broken cranks on O-360s. As I recall it forced a recall.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

milreed(at)directcon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

I too have tentatively selected a ch 701- jabiru0 2200 combination-I would welcome input so related, guided or otherwise. I have0 observed a hi powered ch 701 (912 Hi compression engine?) start up and shut down0 and it shook like a wet dog as well as emitting a large tin shed sound. I0 didn't think too much about the consequences until someone reported they had0 cracks in the empennage from such shivering.

 Mil Reed

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: Engine for 601XL

There are two things that has changed since those photos of the cracks in the empenage:



The newer 912 engines has a clutch that almost ended with that shaking, I have one of this engines



The newer  701 SP conversion has thicker empenage supports, 



Another note, that airplane was 582 powered...



Saludos 

Gary Gower.

Flying From Chapala, Mexico

701 912S

Building a 601 XL (no engine choise yet).



Milburn Reed <milreed(at)directcon.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		         I too have tentatively selected a ch 701- jabiru  2200 combination-I would welcome input so related, guided or otherwise. I have  observed a hi powered ch 701 (912 Hi compression  engine?) start up and shut down  and it shook like a wet dog as well as emitting a large tin shed sound. I  didn't think too much about the consequences until someone reported they had  cracks in the empennage from such shivering.

 Mil Reed  

	




  		Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. [url=http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/  ]Try it free.[/url]

milreed(at)directcon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Engine for 601XL

Then the 582 would shake the 701 worse then the0 newer 912 with the clutch ? 

 How much longer is your ground run at t.o.with the0 582 vs. 912 ? double ?

 Mil

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum