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Speed & Zeniths

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dasduck(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Gang,

Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast.  More power

may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and

effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc.



I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so

much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next one.  It

just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what.



The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace

those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will give the

most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get.



Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO

experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming.  I will say that I

did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost,

complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation.  If I were to build

again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low

maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons,

etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'.



BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in our

RVs.  As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in

from about 25 miles out.  He did a much quicker stop and we heard him leave

as well.  Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at

altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx

forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day!



Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable

economy beats-out top speed most days.  Especially when the bulk of our

flying is not 'cross country'.



Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project

goals are, then it may not matter.  I'm just offering some advice based on

watching futile top speed chasing for a long time.

Dw

RV-6 1000hrs

--

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Wow!  I am truly impressed that anyone could get 1000 hours on an 

RV-6.  I don't mean any criticism of the RV-6, just the notion that a 

home built plane could get that many hours is really something from 

my perspective.



I agree that more power doesn't always translate to more speed.  I 

think it is a matter of how much of the potential speed in the 

airframe design you are comparing.  While it is tempting to consider 

all Zodiacs as the same, this is certainly not true.  Different 

versions of the Zodiac have considerably different wings and the XL 

even has a larger and heavier fuselage.  The maximum speed that is 

reasonable to expect from each of the different Zodiac models is 

quite different.



I do agree that there is a reasonable maximum speed for any 

particular model.  When you add power after reaching that point you 

still get performance increases - just not in the speed arena.  I 

believe each additional unit of power translates into additional 

climb capability as well as a small increase in weight lifting 

capability.  Of course, additional weight is a real problem when 

considering ultimate loading on the airframe so this should not be 

considered lightly.



I live in an area surrounded by very large hills and even 

mountains.  I want my plane to climb well so I don't have to perform 

miracles to get over the hills.  I would use a much larger plane with 

really high performance if not for the fact I don't have a medical 

certificate.  My current situation limits me to LSA compatible 

planes, but that doesn't really limit climb performance.



I believe it is possible to have a plane that has really impressive 

climb and cruise performance and still be economical on fuel 

consumption.  The trick is to control how you fly the plane to get 

which ever extreme you want for a particular flight.  Fuel economy 

can be maximized with good leaning, high cruise altitudes, and low 

throttle settings.  For the most part, this is true no matter which 

engine you have installed.



I have not really considered the issue of engine maintenance at 

remote locations.  I guess I would like to hear more stories about 

this issue.  Hopefully, all of these engines are reliable enough that 

engine failures that call for immediate maintenance would be rare indeed.



Good luck with your RV-6.  I hope it is still going when you hit 2000 hours.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  Gang,

Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast.  More power

may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and

effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc.



I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so

much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next one.  It

just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what.



The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace

those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will give the

most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get.



Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO

experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming.  I will say that I

did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost,

complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation.  If I were to build

again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low

maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons,

etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'.



BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in our

RVs.  As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in

from about 25 miles out.  He did a much quicker stop and we heard him leave

as well.  Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at

altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx

forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day!



Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable

economy beats-out top speed most days.  Especially when the bulk of our

flying is not 'cross country'.



Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project

goals are, then it may not matter.  I'm just offering some advice based on

watching futile top speed chasing for a long time.

Dw

RV-6 1000hrs


	


-

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mfothergill(at)sympatico.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Hi;

I know of 3 CH-601s in Ontario, Cdn that have over 1000 hours. All 

Rotax912s.

Mike

UHS Spinners

Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>

 Wow!  I am truly impressed that anyone could get 1000 hours on an RV-6.  

 I don't mean any criticism of the RV-6, just the notion that a home 

 built plane could get that many hours is really something from my 

 perspective.

 I agree that more power doesn't always translate to more speed.  I think 

 it is a matter of how much of the potential speed in the airframe design 

 you are comparing.  While it is tempting to consider all Zodiacs as the 

 same, this is certainly not true.  Different versions of the Zodiac have 

 considerably different wings and the XL even has a larger and heavier 

 fuselage.  The maximum speed that is reasonable to expect from each of 

 the different Zodiac models is quite different.

 I do agree that there is a reasonable maximum speed for any particular 

 model.  When you add power after reaching that point you still get 

 performance increases - just not in the speed arena.  I believe each 

 additional unit of power translates into additional climb capability as 

 well as a small increase in weight lifting capability.  Of course, 

 additional weight is a real problem when considering ultimate loading on 

 the airframe so this should not be considered lightly.

 I live in an area surrounded by very large hills and even mountains.  I 

 want my plane to climb well so I don't have to perform miracles to get 

 over the hills.  I would use a much larger plane with really high 

 performance if not for the fact I don't have a medical certificate.  My 

 current situation limits me to LSA compatible planes, but that doesn't 

 really limit climb performance.

 I believe it is possible to have a plane that has really impressive 

 climb and cruise performance and still be economical on fuel 

 consumption.  The trick is to control how you fly the plane to get which 

 ever extreme you want for a particular flight.  Fuel economy can be 

 maximized with good leaning, high cruise altitudes, and low throttle 

 settings.  For the most part, this is true no matter which engine you 

 have installed.

 I have not really considered the issue of engine maintenance at remote 

 locations.  I guess I would like to hear more stories about this issue.  

 Hopefully, all of these engines are reliable enough that engine failures 

 that call for immediate maintenance would be rare indeed.

 Good luck with your RV-6.  I hope it is still going when you hit 2000 

 hours.

 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive

> Gang,

> Rocky and Paul are right, a given airframe will only go so fast.  More 

> power

> may make a very small difference, but may cost weight, payload, time and

> effort, reliability, safety, cost, fuel burn, etc.

>

> I fly an RV-6, 12 years now, and I have seen so many RV builders waste so

> much time and money trying to make their RVs faster than the next 

> one.  It

> just doesn't work - an RV wing is only so fast, no matter what.

>

> The Zenith has qualities that led you to choose it as a project, embrace

> those qualities and build a clean, reliable, fun aircraft that will 

> give the

> most hours of trouble-free flying that you can get.

>

> Note that this is not a comment on one engine over another, I have NO

> experience with any engine other than an O-360 Lycoming.  I will say 

> that I

> did some non-standard things with my Lyc install that have added cost,

> complexity, time, and sometimes less reliable operation.  If I were to 

> build

> again, I would go block-stock, factory induction, reliability and low

> maintenance above all else, because I have seen that high comp pistons,

> etc., do not fit in the long-term picture, 'for me'.

>

> BTW - 2 years ago returning from Osh, we stopped at Helena for fuel in 

> our

> RVs.  As we were taxiing out, we heard one of the Zenith listers call in

> from about 25 miles out.  He did a much quicker stop and we heard him 

> leave

> as well.  Because my traveling partner likes to fly at full speed at

> altitude, but is so slow at fuel stops (wipe down the airframe, check wx

> forever, etc.), I think the Zenith 601 beat us back to Portland that day!

>

> Bottom line, with the price of fuel going up rapidly, I think reliable

> economy beats-out top speed most days.  Especially when the bulk of our

> flying is not 'cross country'.

>

> Of course, if 'experimenting' is high on your list of what your project

> goals are, then it may not matter.  I'm just offering some advice 

> based on

> watching futile top speed chasing for a long time.

> Dw

> RV-6 1000hrs

 -

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N601RT

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Speed & Zeniths

The Zenith Don referred to above is N601RT, which now has almost 600 hrs and I expect will have over 1000 hours in a couple more years.



Don shakes his head when he hears about me spending the $'s to add a constant speed prop (keep the $'s & don't add the weight), use his heated pitot tube (weight that will probably never be used), or having Oregon Aero seats (too much $'s and too heavy). 



Paul, Don and I each live ~ 40 miles from Camus. Let me know if you want to see or ride in N601RT OR come to the EAA chapter 105 breakfast the first Sat of the month at Twin Oaks. Don and I are usually there.



Regards,



Roy



N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, Arplast PV-50, All electric, IFR equipped, 598.4hrs, 686 landings

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dasduck(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Paul,

I agree with Roy, I would like to come out with Roy and take a look at your

project, maybe do a Tech Inspection while we're there?  I'm a TC for metal

aircraft and I know I annoyed the heck out of Roy nitpicking his project

prior to first flight 



Never hurts to get in-person ideas on your project.



BTW - 105 Ch Breakfast is tomorrow at 8am at Twin Oaks.  The morning flying

wx has been perfect this week so should be a huge turnout.

dw



--

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Hi Don,



I would be delighted if you would come over for a tech inspection.  I 

haven't had one since Randy Lervold came out in January - three wings 

ago.  I don't have the energy to come to the breakfast this month 

since I just got back from the first day at the Clark County Fair and 

I am exhausted.



Of course it is fine with me if you bring Roy along to see my shop 

and plane.  If you guys want to fly into Grove to visit I can pick 

you both up there.  It is only ten minutes from my house.



Just let me know when you would like to come over.  I can send you a 

map or directions or make other arrangements to make it easy.  If you 

want to use the telephone, my number is 350 834 2010.  Email is more 

convenient for me most of the time, but sometimes the phone is the best way.



Best regards,



Paul

At 10:27 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



Paul,

I agree with Roy, I would like to come out with Roy and take a look at your

project, maybe do a Tech Inspection while we're there?  I'm a TC for metal

aircraft and I know I annoyed the heck out of Roy nitpicking his project

prior to first flight 



Never hurts to get in-person ideas on your project.



BTW - 105 Ch Breakfast is tomorrow at 8am at Twin Oaks.  The morning flying

wx has been perfect this week so should be a huge turnout.

dw



--

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Speed & Zeniths

Hi Don,



It looks like I will be going out to the chapter 105 meeting on 

Thursday night.  Perhaps I will meet you there.



Paul



At 10:27 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



Paul,

I agree with Roy, I would like to come out with Roy and take a look at your

project, maybe do a Tech Inspection while we're there?  I'm a TC for metal

aircraft and I know I annoyed the heck out of Roy nitpicking his project

prior to first flight 



Never hurts to get in-person ideas on your project.



BTW - 105 Ch Breakfast is tomorrow at 8am at Twin Oaks.  The morning flying

wx has been perfect this week so should be a huge turnout.

dw



--

- The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

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