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stalls and spins

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n914va(at)bvunet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: stalls and spins

This does not0 really need to be said because we all know it, but I am 

 	  Quote: 	
		   going to say it0 anyway.

 

 I am now involved in my bi-annual review. As in all my0 bi-annuals and 

 pilot training, my CFI and I go out and do slooow0 flight, asi just over 

 stall speed. The CFI watches closely that I do0 not bank at more than 10 

 or 15 degrees and that I keep the ball0 centered. Those are the 

 crucial factors at that speed. While0 landing the aircraft, the CFI 

 demands a stabilized approach flown at0 the air speeds recommended for 

 the aircraft. If you are diving at the0 field or dragging the airplane in 

 on final, you have not flown a0 stabilized approach. Your speed should 

 not near stall speed until you0 are in the flare and very close to the 

 ground. Most low wing airplanes0 will float quite a ways in ground effect 

 if your approach is too fast,0 but better that then being too slow at 

 altitude, ( I consider that to0 be over 10' AGL). If I can't make a 

 stabilized approach, I will go0 around and try it again and have done so 

 on many occasions when dealing0 with gusty cross winds. I consider a 

 "GO-Around" to be a successful0 missed landing, whereas a missed landing 

 is not in any way successful.0 I enjoy practicing emergency landings and 

 usually try to come in high0 and slip to the field with crossed controls, 

 but am very careful to0 maintain airspeed in this attitude. But a 

 stabilized approach is even0 more of a difficult skill to perform every 

 time and I practice a0 lot.

 

 Vaughn Teegarden

 N914VA not finished, but backing0 up steadily

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: stalls and spins

 	  Quote: 	
		   This does not really need to be said because we all know it, but I am

> going to say it anyway.


	


We all know it yes, and still it can't be said too many times.

Maybe we then remember when everything possible at once tries to distract  

us from flying the plane.



-- 

Kind Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen



workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane

http:www.europaowners.org/kit600

mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail  

closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,  

fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and  

wings.

VE3LVO(at)rac.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: Stalls and spins

paddyclarke(at)lineone.ne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All,

 and, to answer Marks point, has a good aural warning. Just

 remember to ignore the American lady when she says 'Angle, Angle,

 PUSH !' and you're in the flare !!


	


Mark Burton wrote:

Yes, but it still requires you to look inside the cockpit while flying the 

approach to see the AoA display. Once you get to the point of flaring you 

don't need any instruments at all.



Mark, respectfully,

            ...if you have to look into the cockpit, it`s not an appropriate 

AoA. The whole purpose is to inform, not divert.

Also on the flare, all instruments should be aural, if any, and for 

monowheels the rudder had better be in neutral because the tailwheel can`t 

be far behind..........



Ferg Kyle

Europa A064 914 Classic

willie.harrison(at)tinyon
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: Stalls and spins

It seems to me that everyone is right - it doesn't matter how you stay alert

to the possibility of one or both wings stalling, if you let them, so long

as you really do stay alert and maintain a safe margin at all times. Alert

is the operative word. I'm sure we have all been reminded by this tragedy

that stall/spin is a common killer and it could happen to any of us if we

let it.



The one specific thing I'd like to share was an incident ages ago when I

stalled a Jodel from 30 feet due to windshear at Audley End (which can be

very fickle if the wind is coming straight over the top of the hill). One

moment I had an approach airspeed of 50kts, and the next it was 30 and I

was falling not flying. Fortunately that aircraft had loads of washout on

the wing so at least I came down the right way up.



Willie Harrison

G-BZNY - about to get a dose of Mod 66 following breakage of gas strut attachment

lug...

___________________________________________________________



Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup!

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/

n914va(at)bvunet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: Stalls and spins

I have had the opposite problem on landing. Rolling out at about 40 knots 

when a sudden head on wind gust put me at flying speed. The Tomahawk 

immediately jumped up to about 20' above the runway. Had my instructor not 

drilled into me to never take my hand off the throttle while doing 

maneuvers, I would have fallen like a rock when the gust just as suddenly 

ceased. Because I had the throttle full on at the top of this sudden climb, 

I was able to do a go around and make a proper landing. If my hand was not 

on the throttle, the time lag would no doubt have resulted in an unpleasant 

flying day. We should all try to never develop bad habits or get lazy when 

it comes to flying about in a really unforgiving 3D medium.Our asses truly 

depend on it.



Vaughn Teegarden

N914VA (It will fly this century)

---

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: Stalls and spins

Willie, This for me underlines the benefit of Mark's Smartass system, as

opposed to  a stall warner. The Europa good weather approach speed of 60 kts

is some 20kts over the normal stall speed for my plane, and Mark's system

will consequently give you 20 kts worth of warning if you are slowing,

whereas the stall warner clicks in only 5kts or so ahead of trouble. Losing

5 or 10 kts due to windshear is commonplace in reasonable weather

conditions, and although in ideal circumstances we are monitoring speed like

hawks and will compensate before things have got too much out of line, it

can be an entirely different kettle of fish if the workload is excessive -

perhaps a very busy circuit with someone appearing to cut in front of you

(typical rally scenario you might think!). In those sort of circumstances

you may already have let things get a bit slow and low, and might without

giving it full thought be still trying to make the nose point at the

numbers, while mostly concentrating on the guy to starboard who is

threatening to cut in. With the Smartass Mark's lovely wife will have

already told you several times that you are too slow or much too slow, but

without it, the windshear, the stall warner and the spin may all happen more

or less simultaneously. That system incidentally lets you set the chosen

approach speed very simply in the circuit, so that you can for instance set

a higher speed if conditions are boisterous, 'fickle' or whatever.

       I should say that I don't have shares, nor yet a Smartass, but I have

flown with one and plan to put one in when I redesign my panel.

       Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: Stalls and spins

David was referring to the "Smartass" fitted to my Europa, so you might be 

interested in my view on its operation and safety aspect.

The strip I am using at present has trees right up to one end and power 

lines at the other end, so when on the approach and climb-out my eyeballs 

are right out on storks to make sure I am taking the best line with maximum 

clearance and enough runway to stop.

On climb-out Helen tells me every few seconds what my airspeed is so that I 

can hold it at the best climb-angle speed to clear the obstructions and on 

the approach I set it to my target approach speed for the current conditions 

and hold it at that while I negotiate the obstructions.  Helen then tells me 

if I am "fast", or "very fast" or "slow" or "very slow", but if I get it 

right she just says "speed good" which is very comforting in difficult 

conditions.  Also when the speed is "good" the interval between Helen's 

announcements is longer and when the speed is "slow" or "very slow" the 

interval becomes much shorter to emphasise the urgency.

I have also found it to be very useful if I inadvertently stray into cloud, 

because there is one less instrument to worry about and there is a little 

more time to adjust the GPS or radio without losing the plot.

There is just an on/off/volume knob and a mode selection push-button, so it 

occupies only about a square inch of panel space and the box of tricks 

weighs only a few ounces and can be installed anywhere remotely.  Having 

fitted one, I can confirm that it is a great safety asset and I would no 

longer be without one, difficult strips or not.  Very many thanks to Mark 

for his brilliant innovation.

Best wishes,

William

---

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: Stalls and spins

It is important to realise with all stall warning systems whether they

are giving you warnings above a nominated speed or whether they are

giving you a warning that you are approaching a critical AOA. 



For example 5kts warning above a critical AOA is better than 15kts

warning above a speed which is the wings level one 'g' stall speed. If

you bank 45deg in level flight the stall speed increases by about 40 per

cent so if your wings level stall speed was 40kts at 45deg bank it

becomes about 56kts. Thus in this case a speed warning of 15kts before

the stall becomes no warning at all whereas a conventional stall warner

or AOA system will still provide the 5kt warning



Nigel Charles

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Stalls and spins

[quote="nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk"]It is important to realise with all stall warning systems whether they

are giving you warnings above a nominated speed or whether they are

giving you a warning that you are approaching a critical AOA. 



For example 5kts warning above a critical AOA is better than 15kts

warning above a speed which is the wings level one 'g' stall speed. If

you bank 45deg in level flight the stall speed increases by about 40 per

cent so if your wings level stall speed was 40kts at 45deg bank it

becomes about 56kts. Thus in this case a speed warning of 15kts before

the stall becomes no warning at all whereas a conventional stall warner

or AOA system will still provide the 5kt warning



Nigel Charles[/quote]



I think you will find that the stall speed increase is proportional to the square root of the G loading and so in your example above the stall speed increases by 20% to 48kts rather than by 40% to 56kts.



Nonetheless, the point you are making is a good one and I have already started developing the next generation of SmartASS that will take into account the G loading so as to provide the pilot with more warning margin.



Mark

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: stalls and spins

I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of0AOA0 being a better indication than IAS.  The actual stall speed is easily0 calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' which is0 keeping the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a0 turn.  

  

 Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea Vixens,0 we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which was0 also transmitted to Flyco at the same time.  The approach speed was 1280 knots with normal landing all up weight .  Being within 1 knot of that0 speed was essential.  2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of0the0 carrier and you were dead.  2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over0 the wires and have to get power on quickly to go around again.

  

 Not amusing at night on a pitching deck!

  

 Patrick

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: stalls and spins

Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as supplied 

by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON when pressure 

changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. Very simple, cheap, and 

should work at all speeds and attitudes, except maybe when inverted. Am I 

wrong here ?



Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: BEBERRY(at)aol.com

Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: stalls and spins

Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT



I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of AOA

being a better indication than IAS.  The actual stall speed is easily

calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' which 

is  keeping

the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a  turn.



Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea Vixens,

we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which was

also transmitted to Flyco at the same time.  The approach speed was 128  

knots

with normal landing all up weight .  Being within 1 knot of that  speed was

essential.  2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the  carrier 

and you

were dead.  2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over  the wires and 

have

to get power on quickly to go around again.



Not amusing at night on a pitching deck!



Patrick

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: stalls and spins

You are quite right. A 40 per cent increase should be for a 60deg bank

turn. My mistake.



Nigel



--

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: stalls and spins

The simple standard stall warner, like the small vane type that some of

us have, works on AOA so should always give a timely warning before the

stall whatever the bank or 'g' loading provided they are set up

accurately in the first place. However they are just like a switch

either on or off. A calibrated AOA gauge with audio as well gives

several stages of warnings both audio and visual. Monitoring an AOA

gauge during less critical flight situations helps to educate the pilot

what the margin is from the stall for different loadings. Which you

choose is up to you. Either way I think it is a wise precaution to have

at least the simple version as an extra layer of safety protection.



Nigel Charles



--

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: stalls and spins

I agree! The issue is warning. My standard Europa stall warning sounds 

two radio shack buzzers and light front & center up top of the wind 

screen. It works great! Set it for what ever speed above stall you want 

and it blows you out of the cabin when you get slow.

Jeff

A258 Flying.



Do Not Archive.

On Aug 7, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Karl Heindl wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as 

 supplied by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON 

 when pressure changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. 

 Very simple, cheap, and should work at all speeds and attitudes, 

 except maybe when inverted. Am I wrong here ?



 Karl

> From: BEBERRY(at)aol.com

> Reply-To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: Re: stalls and spins

> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT

>

> I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept 

> of AOA

> being a better indication than IAS.  The actual stall speed is easily

> calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' 

> which is  keeping

> the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a  turn.

>

> Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea 

> Vixens,

> we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, 

> which was

> also transmitted to Flyco at the same time.  The approach speed was 

> 128  knots

> with normal landing all up weight .  Being within 1 knot of that  

> speed was

> essential.  2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the  

> carrier and you

> were dead.  2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over  the wires 

> and have

> to get power on quickly to go around again.

>

> Not amusing at night on a pitching deck!

>

> Patrick



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 http://wiki.matronics.com

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: stalls and spins

I have the Europa stall-warner as well as Mark's Smartass and I believe they 

both provide a different service.  The stall-warner provides me with an 

alarm at about 5 kts above the stall, so I can instantly unload the wing and 

apply more power if necessary, whereas the Smartass helps me to monitor my 

speed in critical situations and /or fly accurately at a selected speed 

without looking at the panel.

Hope that helps,

William

---

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