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use of toggle switch breakers

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CardinalNSB(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

My certified aircraft uses little square cheap type breakers, and rocker0 switches for certain items.  I plan to replace the breaker and rocker0 switch with a Potter and Brumfield "toggle switch/breaker combination".  I0 plan to use the same amp toggle switch breaker as the circuit breaker I am0 replacing.  I plan to do this for the landing light, taxi light, nav0 lights, beacon, pitot heat, and fuel pump.  My ap is ok with this as a0 minor modification.

  

 Does anyone recommend against this plan, and why?  Thank you, Skip0 Simpson

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:59 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

In a message dated 8/4/06 4:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

CardinalNSB(at)aol.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My certified aircraft uses little square cheap type breakers, and rocker  

  switches for certain items.  I plan to replace the breaker and rocker  

 switch with a Potter and Brumfield "toggle switch/breaker combination".  I  

plan to 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   use  the same amp toggle switch breaker as the circuit breaker I am  

replacing.  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I plan to do this for the landing light, taxi light, nav  lights, beacon, 

 pitot heat, and fuel pump.  My ap is ok with this as a  minor modification.

   

  Does anyone recommend against this plan, and why?  Thank you, Skip  Simpson

========================================
	


Skip:



Not at all.  It is a good way to kill two birds with one stone.  Maybe even 

three birds:

1 - You replace old switches with new.

2 - You eliminate an old style fuse/breaker and replace with new 

3 - And you also eliminate an additional failure point.



As far as it being Minor Modification ... I don't think so.  but, the 

important part is your A&P does thin it is.  You will find out about that when you 

submit the 337. I would write it up as a Minor and let the FAA sort it out.  

REMEMBER!  You will have to change the wiring at the Old CB / Fuse You will have 

to bypass the old and remove the Old and also add placards for the switches 

showing CB Amperage.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

oldbob(at)beechowners.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

Good Morning Barry,

If you don't mind, may I make a small comment?

I will not attempt to make a determination as to

whether or not the proposed alteration is minor or

major, but will add that no 337 needs to be filed for

a minor alteration. 

The determination can be made by the appropriately

certificated technician making the change. 

He or she is required to state what has been done by

making an entry in the appropriate ship's papers.

There is always the possibility that some authorized

person such as an A&P holding an IA may later decide

that the installation is not minor and refuse to

declare the aircraft as airworthy.  I would, therefor,

suggest that whoever is going to annual the airplane

be consulted. If the A&P who is going to authorize the

change is also the IA who is going to perform the

annual inspection, forget the 337! 

Happy Skies,

Old bob

--- FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com

 In a message dated 8/4/06 4:39:00 AM Eastern

 Daylight Time, 

 CardinalNSB(at)aol.com writes:

 > My certified aircraft uses little square cheap

 type breakers, and rocker  

 >  switches for certain items.  I plan to replace

 the breaker and rocker  

 > switch with a Potter and Brumfield "toggle

 switch/breaker combination".  I  

 plan to 

 > use  the same amp toggle switch breaker as the

 circuit breaker I am  

 replacing.  

 > I plan to do this for the landing light, taxi

 light, nav  lights, beacon, 

 > pitot heat, and fuel pump.  My ap is ok with this

 as a  minor modification.

 >   

 >  Does anyone recommend against this plan, and why?

  Thank you, Skip  Simpson

 ========================================

 Skip:

 Not at all.  It is a good way to kill two birds with

 one stone.  Maybe even 

 three birds:

 1 - You replace old switches with new.

 2 - You eliminate an old style fuse/breaker and

 replace with new 

 3 - And you also eliminate an additional failure

 point.

 As far as it being Minor Modification ... I don't

 think so.  but, the 

 important part is your A&P does thin it is.  You

 will find out about that when you 

 submit the 337. I would write it up as a Minor and

 let the FAA sort it out.  

 REMEMBER!  You will have to change the wiring at the

 Old CB / Fuse You will have 

 to bypass the old and remove the Old and also add

 placards for the switches 

 showing CB Amperage.

 Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"

 "Show them the first time, correct them the second

 time, kick them the third 

 time." 

 Yamashiada

 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 Admin.

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

P&B's were used for years in Mooney's. They do become weak and trip  

early, after, oh say 30+ years.  Otherwise, much easier to use. Be  

certain of physical dimension fit, both front to back and side to side.

Read Part 43 Appendix A carefully as to minor vs major mod. Consult  

with the IA you plan to use for your next annual. He is the person  

that you need to buy into the project. Or at a minimum, have your A&P  

discuss it with him.

Minor modifications are not written up on 337s. If you have doubt, at  

least in your FSDO area, have your A&P write it up as a 337 field  

approval and submit to FSDO for signature before any work starts. That  

way you get approval or told not needed from your FSDO.



Quoting FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Skip:



 Not at all.  It is a good way to kill two birds with one stone.  Maybe even

 three birds:

 1 - You replace old switches with new.

 2 - You eliminate an old style fuse/breaker and replace with new

 3 - And you also eliminate an additional failure point.



 As far as it being Minor Modification ... I don't think so.  but, the

 important part is your A&P does thin it is.  You will find out about  

  that when you

 submit the 337. I would write it up as a Minor and let the FAA sort it out.

 REMEMBER!  You will have to change the wiring at the Old CB / Fuse   

 You will have

 to bypass the old and remove the Old and also add placards for the switches

 showing CB Amperage.



 Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"



 "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third

 time."

 Yamashiada

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

RE: "...also add placards for the switches showing CB Amperage."



The P&B W31 Toggle Switch/Breakers have the amp rating engraved on the end

of the toggle...



--

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

In a message dated 8/4/06 12:31:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

bdenton(at)bdenton.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   RE: "...also add placards for the switches showing CB Amperage."

  

  The P&B W31 Toggle Switch/Breakers have the amp rating engraved on the end

  of the toggle...

  

==========================
	


True, there is an engraving but it is not very visible ... Not to these old 

eyes and very difficult to see at night.  



I just redid all the placards on the RV-6A with a brother P-Touch and black 

tape.  WOW looks very nice.  Maybe not OSH 1st place quality but very nice.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:16 PM, FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In a message dated 8/4/06 12:31:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

 bdenton(at)bdenton.com writes:



> RE: "...also add placards for the switches showing CB Amperage."

>

>  The P&B W31 Toggle Switch/Breakers have the amp rating engraved  

> on the end

>  of the toggle...

>

 ==========================

 True, there is an engraving but it is not very visible ... Not to  

 these old

 eyes and very difficult to see at night.


	


Why would it be important to read the trip value of a breaker in  

flight? You would want to be able to read it to be sure you installed  

the correct breaker on the correct circuit but after that, what does  

it matter?



Now labeling the circuit is another matter.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

In a message dated 8/4/06 8:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 

oldbob(at)beechowners.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Morning Barry,

  

  If you don't mind, may I make a small comment?

  

  I will not attempt to make a determination as to

  whether or not the proposed alteration is minor or

  major, but will add that no 337 needs to be filed for

  a minor alteration. 

  

  The determination can be made by the appropriately

  certificated technician making the change. 

  

  He or she is required to state what has been done by

  making an entry in the appropriate ship's papers.

  

  There is always the possibility that some authorized

  person such as an A&P holding an IA may later decide

  that the installation is not minor and refuse to

  declare the aircraft as airworthy.  I would, therefor,

  suggest that whoever is going to annual the airplane

  be consulted. If the A&P who is going to authorize the

  change is also the IA who is going to perform the

  annual inspection, forget the 337! 

  

  Happy Skies,

  

  Old bob

=======================
	


Hello Old Bob:



If it is a GA aircraft it would be a MAJOR alteration.  Since you are 

changing the wiring configuration.  It would not match the submitted drawing for the 

plane.  



As for 337's, I don't see why people are scared of them.  There is a simple 

16 question outline that must be followed.  And there are provisions where if 

you think there may be a problem getting a 337 approved you submit a request.



I really like 337's and use them all the time. They are a GREAT way to keep 

track of a plane by showing what was done and it adds to the value when selling.



Just because one A&P/I may accept a 'gray area' alteration does not mean the 

next guy will.  A simple 337 eliminates the 'gray area'.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

Good Afternoon Barry,



Once Again, I am not making any decision as to whether

or not the modification in question is major or minor.

That is totally a decision to be made by the

authorized person making the decision.



I gladly defer to his or her judgment.



However, I strongly disagree with the following

statement:

"Just because one A&P/I may accept a 'gray area'

alteration does not mean the next guy will.  A simple

337 eliminates the 'gray area'."



Filing a 337 does not change the legality or the

potential for discussion. 



There is no 16 step set of directions needed to file a

337. The 16 point guide is for the "Instructions for

Continued Airworthiness" that is to be filed if a

local approval is requested.



A routine 337 is to be filed for many reasons, but the

ICA requirement only applies if a local approval or

multiple time STC is being applied for.



Filing a 337 for a minor alteration is asking the FAA

to make a decision that should be made by the

responsible technician. If you don't know what your

authority is, maybe you should not be making such

decisions?



I do agree with you that applying for a local approval

is a relatively simple procedure, though getting the

approval has become more difficult than it was in the

past. I also agree that if you do intend to ask for a

local approval, it is best to supply a proposed

solution before any "metal is cut".



Happy Skies,



Old "Successful at several local approvals" Bob





--- FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com

 

 In a message dated 8/4/06 8:18:13 AM Eastern

 Daylight Time, 

 oldbob(at)beechowners.com writes:

 

 > Good Morning Barry,

 >  

 >  If you don't mind, may I make a small comment?

 >  

 >  I will not attempt to make a determination as to

 >  whether or not the proposed alteration is minor

 or

 >  major, but will add that no 337 needs to be filed

 for

 >  a minor alteration. 

 >  

 >  The determination can be made by the

 appropriately

 >  certificated technician making the change. 

 >  

 >  He or she is required to state what has been done

 by

 >  making an entry in the appropriate ship's papers.

 >  

 >  There is always the possibility that some

 authorized

 >  person such as an A&P holding an IA may later

 decide

 >  that the installation is not minor and refuse to

 >  declare the aircraft as airworthy.  I would,

 therefor,

 >  suggest that whoever is going to annual the

 airplane

 >  be consulted. If the A&P who is going to

 authorize the

 >  change is also the IA who is going to perform the

 >  annual inspection, forget the 337! 

 >  

 >  Happy Skies,

 >  

 >  Old bob

 =======================

 Hello Old Bob:

 

 If it is a GA aircraft it would be a MAJOR

 alteration.  Since you are 

 changing the wiring configuration.  It would not

 match the submitted drawing for the 

 plane.  

 

 As for 337's, I don't see why people are scared of

 them.  There is a simple 

 16 question outline that must be followed.  And

 there are provisions where if 

 you think there may be a problem getting a 337

 approved you submit a request.

 

 I really like 337's and use them all the time. They

 are a GREAT way to keep 

 track of a plane by showing what was done and it

 adds to the value when selling.

 

 Just because one A&P/I may accept a 'gray area'

 alteration does not mean the 

 next guy will.  A simple 337 eliminates the 'gray

 area'.

 

 Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"

 

 "Show them the first time, correct them the second

 time, kick them the third 

 time." 

 Yamashiada

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



 (was 2MB)



 Web Forums!

 Admin.

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

What you say is nice in theory. However, I have yet to work on a TC  

aircraft that has 337s with circuit diagrams available, nor does  

changing the actual circuitry necessarily constitute a major  

alteration unless it fits the definition in Part 43 Appendix A. If the  

change is transparent to the pilot and doesn't affect how the plane is  

operated, it isn't necessarily major. Will also depend a lot on the  

local FSDO. Some would want a 337 if you changed brands of circuit  

breaker, while others don't want to even talk to you unless the change  

is meaningful in the Appendix A context.

In fact I have worked on a lot of wiring done by FAA certified  

avionics repair stations that doesn't come close to meeting the  

guidance in 43-13-1B and 2A, with 337s filed, that I would still  

reject as unairworthy if I were doing the inspection.



KM

A&P/IA



Quoting FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Old Bob:



 If it is a GA aircraft it would be a MAJOR alteration.  Since you are

 changing the wiring configuration.  It would not match the submitted  

  drawing for the

 plane.



 As for 337's, I don't see why people are scared of them.  There is a simple

 16 question outline that must be followed.  And there are provisions where if

 you think there may be a problem getting a 337 approved you submit a request.



 I really like 337's and use them all the time. They are a GREAT way to keep

 track of a plane by showing what was done and it adds to the value   

 when selling.



 Just because one A&P/I may accept a 'gray area' alteration does not mean the

 next guy will.  A simple 337 eliminates the 'gray area'.



 Barry

 "Chop'd Liver"



 "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third

 time."

 Yamashiada

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: use of toggle switch breakers

In a message dated 8/9/06 2:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

kellym(at)aviating.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In fact I have worked on a lot of wiring done by FAA certified  

  avionics repair stations that doesn't come close to meeting the  

  guidance in 43-13-1B and 2A, with 337s filed, that I would still  

  reject as unairworthy if I were doing the inspection.

  

  KM

  A&P/IA

=========================
	


Kelly:



Good for you ... I have also.  How about 4 crimp on splices in a 2 ft run!



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"



"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third 

time." 

Yamashiada

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