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allpro2(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.  Looking0 at engine choices.

  

 Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the0 Corvair.

  

 On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at0 approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.

 The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the0 completed engine already built and modified costs approximately $8000.  I0 see that a cowling is available for approximately an additional0 $400.

  

 Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort0 all of this "stuff" out.  Those of you that have used the Corvair, what0 additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved to make the0 Corvair work in the 601.  In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of0 the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare0 "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs0 involved.

  

 Thanks for sharing....

  

 Bill in central Florida

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Bill,

      Don't think I am0 flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that the Corvair was0 designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircraft.  I have no idea0 how dependable any of the auto conversions are and the Corvair may be just as0 dependable as the Jabiru.  I would not use a car engine of any kind in an0 aircraft but this is only my opinion.  However it is impresive the the most0 sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels0 the same way.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

 [quote]   ---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Bob,

When you spend $60 to $75K for a homebuilt like the RV, you'd expect to 

see a $25K+ engine powering it and the money is not at issue.  Most RV 

builders

are not interested in conversions.  Using an automotive engine wouldn't 

do Van any good in the long run.  He will sell you an engine and his 

choice is going to

parallel commercial aircraft products.  The Zenith people do the same 

thing.  An auto conversion has its own rewards besides being able to 

save huge amounts

of cash.  The objectives of knowing more about your engine and its 

operation is key and essential for conversions.  Few builders want more 

than to bolt one on and

run it with the expectation of 1000 worry free hours.   That's why the 

margin between engine problems of the conversion and the production 

commercial types

are so close. 

Larry McFarland - 601HDS Stratus Subaru

Robert L. Stone wrote:



[quote] Bill,

      Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help 

 pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and 

 the Jabiru for aircraft.  I have no idea how dependable any of the 

 auto conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the 

 Jabiru.  I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but 

 this is only my opinion.  However it is impresive the the most 

 sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field 

 (RV) feels the same way.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

 Zodiac XL (Not too far along)



     ---

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Bill,  I have the same question as you.  What is the real cost of the FWF with a Corvair engine?  I'd also like to know if WW can supply a FWF "kit."  If not, what can he supply and what will need to be scrounged?  I've asked this question via e-mail, but have not gotten a reply.  I'm hoping someone on the forum can help.

 

 I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANYONE'S OPINION OF THE CORVAIR ENGINE, PERIOD!

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage

 Do not archive

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I agree with most all of the points/arguments I've seen for different engine 

configurations discussed on this board.  In my mind, my opinion, no auto 

conversion will be as 'good' (and there are many different definitions of 

what good is), as a "real aircraft engine".  I had originally planned to go 

with the Corvair but still, even with the nitrided cranks, I'm scared of the 

crank failures from a safety perspective.  I still would like the experience 

of building my own engine though.  I've got quite a bit of engine building 

experience under my belt over the years and think I have 'goods upstairs' to 

accomplish this, as well as the tooling.  For the things I don't have the 

tooling for, I have connections to folks who do.



That being said, my plan IS to build my own engine.  I'm just starting with 

a Lycoming O-235 core, as opposed to an auto engine.  Let's face it, 

airplane engines are very basic engines.  They were designed that way.  My 

plan is bore my own cylinders.  I have already made a torque plate to hold 

the cylinder jug at the proper tension while it's being bored.  I have 

access to a good Sun Cylinder Hone to hone them to the final size.  I plan 

on using J&E pistons.  J&E will custom make a forged set of pistons in any 

configuration you can dream up for about $100 each.  I have access to very 

competent machine shop that can rebuild the rods, and do other machining 

that might be done as well...  There will be other parts I know I will have 

to buy as 'certified' parts, such as the cam, lifters and maybe main/rod 

bearings, gaskets...etc., but I can deal with that.  I believe in the end, I 

can have a fresh "O-235" for less than $5K, including the cost of my core. 

I'm sure I would have ended up with $3K or more in a suitable Corvair.  No, 

I know it won't be 'certified' anymore... neither is the airframe I'm 

hanging it on.  Do I think I will have an engine that is just as reliable as 

a 'certified' engine... Yes, and because I've been inside it and know what's 

in it, and how it was done/assembled, in many ways I'll even feel better 

about it...to me that's 1/2 the battle.



One guy told me today that without a 'certified' prop/engine configuration, 

I'd have a 40 hour fly off, rather than a 25 hour fly off...  Who cares?  I 

plan on flying it more than 40 hours anyways, so this really don't play a 

part...at least in my mind.



At any rate, this is the plan I have in place for the engine that will be on 

my 601XL...  I'll keep you posted on my progress and any snags I encounter 

along the way...



Have fun and keep er' out of the trees,



Randy Bryant

XL - Wings - Plans Only

http://www.n344rb.com

---

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from0 WW).

 [quote]   ---

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I checked my spreadsheet on the Corvair engine0 I recently rebuilt, total cost so far is $6120. I bought almost all of WW0 components he has to offer including nitrided crankshaft, most of the rest was0 purchased from Clark's Corvair such as forged pistons, 040 jugs, the0 pistons and connecting rods are balanced by Clark's, new hydraulic lifters, ARP0 studs, OT 10 cam, stainless steel valves, I had a three angle valve job0 done on the heads, new valves guides, I think you get the picture by now. I0 tried to buy the best of everything to go into this engine, the amount listed0 above is everything firewall forward (including prop and0 spinner) except the carb and altenator, anything I may have missed0 would not amount to much. There is not doubt I could have cut cost, I just0 didn't want to.  

  

 Clyde Barcus

 601 XL   

    ---

rsq2424(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

 	  Quote: 	
		  What is the real cost of the FWF with a Corvair engine?  I'd also like to know if >WW can supply a FWF "kit."  If not, what can he supply and what will need to 

be scrounged?


	


If you go to WW's web site, you can see everything he offers for sale. When I was considering the Corvair, he sold most of the FWF components you would need, but the cowl was still under development (probably finished by now). His manual provides instructions as to where to find the stuff he doesn't sell. As for a complete FWF kit with installations instructions, I don't believe that's an option (yet), but that was the goal. If you go to his web site, you'll get a fairly accurate idea of what it would cost to build & install a Corvair conversion, depending on how cheaply you can find an engine core.



As for a cost comparison between the 'Vair and the Jab, my calculations revealed that you would save approximately $6 or $7K,  depending on various factors. So, if money is the issue, then the 'Vair wins out since that's a decent chunk of change. But also keep in mind that if you consider time to be worth money, then the two engine choices come closer to balancing out (especially if you're not an A&P mechanic). Despite what others may lead you to believe, installing a Corvair is definitely more difficult than the Jab 3300 w/FWF kit. Not that either one is particulary easy, but the Jab wins out in that department.



Mike Fortunato

601XL Jab 3300

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Robin Bellach wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		              Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from WW).

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     allpro2(at)bellsouth.net (allpro2(at)bellsouth.net)     

     To:     zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

     Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM

     Subject: total engine costs involved???

     

     

     I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.  Looking at engine choices.

      

     Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.

      

     On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.

     The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine already built and modified costs approximately $8000.  I see that a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.

      

     Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff" out.  Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair work in the 601.  In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs involved.

      

     Thanks for sharing....

      

     Bill in central Florida

      

      

   	
 	
     Or fabricate one yourself for less than $100.  $200 if you have to have a professional weld it for you.

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Has anyone heard how WW's CH701/Corvair project is going?



On 8/5/06, Tom Henderson <admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com  (admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: Tom Henderson              Robin Bellach wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  	


            Don't forget the motor mount ($639 from WW).

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  	


     ----- Original Message ----- 

      From:     allpro2(at)bellsouth.net (allpro2(at)bellsouth.net)     



     To:     zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 



      Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:04 AM

     Subject: total engine costs involved???

     

     

     I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.  Looking at engine choices.

      

     Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.

      

     On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000. plus $3350 for the firewall forward package.

     The Corvair from William Wynne, if you buy the completed engine already built and modified costs approximately $8000.  I see that a cowling is available for approximately an additional $400.

      

     Please bear in mind that I am just trying to sort all of this "stuff" out.  Those of you that have used the Corvair, what additional costs, roughly for all of the other components involved to make the Corvair work in the 601.  In otherwords I am trying to compare the costs of the Jabiru FWF package to a Corvair FWF "package". I know it is hard to compare "apples to apples", but I would like other's comments and rough costs involved.

      

     Thanks for sharing....

      

     Bill in central Florida

      

      



         Or fabricate one yourself for less than $100.  $200 if you have to have a professional weld it for you.

 

 

                 

	


-- 

John Marzulli

http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Sounds like a plan to me! Just do it.



Kevin Bonds

Nashville TN

601XL Plans building.

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE 



 

--

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Heck, spend 35,000 bucks on a certified Lycoming aircraft engine and wait for the crack to break.....  

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4(at)hot.rr.com> wrote:

  Bill,

      Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircraft.  I have no idea how dependable any of the auto conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.  I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only my opinion.  However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

 [quote] ---

allenricks(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Bill,

  

 Just so you're aware.  When I asked Van's about0 the RV-12 at their open house, I was told there was NO WAY they would be0 interested in putting together a FWF for the Jabiru engine0 either, 

 as they (Van's) did not consider the Jabiru to be0 either proven, or a mainstream engine.  At this time they will support no0 engine other than the Rotax 912, as it has been used in certified0 aircraft. 

  

 As an aside, the cost of a rebuilt to factory new0 limits O-235 and a Jabiru or Rotax is roughly the same.  The0 O-235 is probably a little lower.  The problem is the O-325 will eat0 about 90 lb's of your 

 gross0 weight.  

  

 By the way, the RV12 factory workmanship is0 beautiful, and it's pushrod control so it will have that "RV"0 feeling.  The wings are also a relatively quick fold.  I think0 Zenith will have a tough time selling 

 kits when the -12 comes out.  The only  disadvantage I see it the fuel tank behind the seats.  The fuel tank was0 put behind the seats to make the wing folding easier. 0 

  

 Allen Ricks

 Zodiac XL0 builder

 



  	  Quote: 	
		     Bill,

        Don't think I am0   flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that the Corvair0   was designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircraft.  I have0   no idea how dependable any of the auto conversions are and the Corvair may be0   just as dependable as the Jabiru.  I would not use a car engine of any0   kind in an aircraft but this is only my opinion.  However it is impresive0   the the most sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft0   field (RV) feels the same way.

    

   Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

    	  Quote:

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Opps... Make that CRANK....... not crack... do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Robert L. Stone" <rstone4(at)hot.rr.com> wrote:

  Bill,

      Don't think I am flaming you because I am not but I can't help pointing out that the Corvair was designed specifically for cars and the Jabiru for aircraft.  I have no idea how dependable any of the auto conversions are and the Corvair may be just as dependable as the Jabiru.  I would not use a car engine of any kind in an aircraft but this is only my opinion.  However it is impresive the the most sucessful designer and company owner in the homebuilt aircraft field (RV) feels the same way.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

Zodiac XL (Not too far along)

 [quote] ---

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I plan on it Kevin...  I've already bought the O-235, it's in Michigan, I'm 

in North Carolina.  I plan to drive there on the 17th of this month to pick 

it up...  After that, I'll be on my way!



Thanks!



Randy

do not archive

---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Hello Jay,



WW and ZAC are working hard about the FWF kit for the 601,  I dont know if they had it finished for Oskosh time but if not, they are close to have it,



In rough guess the FWF  kit has to include:  Cowling, cooling fence for the engine, propeller, spinner, vernier for the thottle, oil cooler (if extra from engine) engine mount, hoses for gasoline and oils systems and all the hardware involved.  This list can be incomplete.



What I can tell you first hand is that the FWF kit for our 701  (Rotax 912S) was complete to the most little detail.  We are very happy with it.  



If you are planning to install this engine (Corvair) I am sure that the FWF kit will be with everything needed,  They need some time to study and double check that the kits they sell will make any first time builder an expert.  



I am also shure that Jon is going to work to come out with one of his wonderfull DVD's about  this Corvair engine instalation (Homebuilt Help) real soon...   



Hope that you are still working in your airplane the enough time to wait for this kits to be ready for the market.  



Saludos

Gary Gower.



Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill,  I have the same question as you.  What is the real cost of the FWF with a Corvair engine?  I'd also like to know if WW can supply a FWF "kit."  If not, what can he supply and what will need to be scrounged?  I've asked this question via e-mail, but have not gotten a reply.  I'm hoping someone on the forum can help.

 

 I AM NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING ANYONE'S OPINION OF THE CORVAIR ENGINE, PERIOD!

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL  fuselage

 Do not archive

 

 	




  Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

pmaxpmax(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I just opened up my spreadsheet that has all my engine rebuild and firewall 

forward costs in it.  I spent $6,010.00 on my firewall forward package.  

This cost includes everything to install the engine, and the nose-bowl. It 

does not include the cowling pieces, spinner, and various other parts for 

the cowling.  Remember, however, that I did most of the prep work to the 

engine here in my house, and then went down to William Wynne's hangar to do 

the engine build.  The final assembly was done in 3 days with Kevin (one of 

William's guys) looking over my shoulder and doing all the critical stages.  

This is different from the full completed engine that you mention.  Also, I 

carted the whole plane down to the Flycorvair hangar again, and did the 

critical engine installation under their watchful eyes (Gus Warren and I did 

the electrical system, fuel plumbing and cowling).  Gus and William have 

built MANY planes and installed MANY corvairs. They know what they are 

doing.  This is the way to go.



The best reason to install a Corvair is the education and satisfaction you 

get from doing the project yourself.  (I've talked about this in many 

previous posts)



Phil Maxson

601XL/Corvair

Northwest New Jersey



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: <allpro2(at)bellsouth.net>

Subject: total engine costs involved???

Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:04:01 -0400



I am thinking out loud about a 601XL.  Looking at engine choices.



Looking at the Jabiru and comparing it to say the Corvair.



On the Zenith price list, the Jabiru comes in at approximately $15000. plus 

$3350 for the firewall forward package.

<<SNIP>>

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

I'm0 sure that the RV-12 will be a fine plane and another example of what great0 kits Van's puts out. But I would not be making any funeral arrangements for0 the 601XL just yet. The RV-12's folding wing feature may or may not be an asset0 depending on whether or not you care to trailer the plane or need extra hangar0 space. Like a pool in the backyard, it won't thrill every buyer. It doesn't0 interest me very much, for instance, but to each his own as we have said many0 times.

  

 We'll0 have to wait and see if one can get that "RV feel" at modest speeds. Remember0 that a lot of that feel has derived from 200mph airflow over the control  surfaces. 

  

 On the0 individuality issue, the RV-12 loses to the 601XL on the issue of engine choice.0 If you have read what the Corvair guys have been saying, can you imagine one of0 them getting all gushy about a kit that only accepts a Rotax 912S?  What0 about the guys who are twitching to rebuild and install Lycoming or Continental0 mills? There are also quite a few folks out there flying behind Jabirus who0 would not accept the statement about their engines not being proven0 yet. The cabin space looks cramped too but that may be a false impression I0 got form the drawings on the Vans site.  Vangrunsven is definitely not a0 lightweight but there are other valid opinions that won't go away just because0 he brings a competing plane to the market. It is likely that ZAC will0 continue to add more CAN punched matched hole convenience to future kits which0 will further dilute some of the Van's advantage.

  

 The0 Zodiac will continue to flourish because of its anachronistic character..... it0 accepts the desire of some to experiment and offers a successful track record to0 others. The RV-12 will likely do very well as all Van's other kits have.... I0 don't see either one on an endangered species list anytime0 soon.

  

 Just0 my opinion,

  

 Ed0 Moody II

 Rayne,0 LA

 601XL0 / Jab 3300

  

 Allen0 wrote:

  

 By the way, the RV12 factory workmanship is0 beautiful, and it's pushrod control so it will have that "RV"0 feeling.  The wings are also a relatively quick fold.  I think0 Zenith will have a tough time selling kits when the -12 comes out.  The only disadvantage I see it0 the fuel tank behind the seats.  The fuel tank was put behind the seats to0 make the wing folding easier.  

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   Allen Ricks

   Zodiac XL0   builder    0

Doug Garrou

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Richmond, VA, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Are you saying that auto conversions and certified engines generally experience roughly the same number of in-flight power failures?  I've never seen data either way, so you may be right.  But I am pretty confident that the insurance companies don't have this view.



What leads you to this conclusion?



--

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: total engine costs involved???

Not to mention the #1 reason I chose the 601XL:  I can built it from plans.  If Van's offered the plans for an RV-7, I'd have half of an RV in the garage instead of a Zodiac.  Take a look at the number of plans built vs kit built Zeniths out there.  There's a surprising number of them being built from $5K worth of aluminum, rather than paying $15K for a partially built airframe.  

    So will my next airplane be a Van's?  Heck no.  Yeah, I still LOVE the RVs, but I discovered I love building something from nothing a little bit more.



    Do Not Archive



Edward Moody II <dredmoody(at)cox.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		          I'm  sure that the RV-12 will be a fine plane and another example of what great  kits Van's puts out. But I would not be making any funeral arrangements for  the 601XL just yet. The RV-12's folding wing feature may or may not be an asset  depending on whether or not you care to trailer the plane or need extra hangar  space. Like a pool in the backyard, it won't thrill every buyer. It doesn't  interest me very much, for instance, but to each his own as we have said many  times.

  

 We'll  have to wait and see if one can get that "RV feel" at modest speeds. Remember  that a lot of that feel has derived from 200mph airflow over the control  surfaces. 

   

 On the  individuality issue, the RV-12 loses to the 601XL on the issue of engine choice.  If you have read what the Corvair guys have been saying, can you imagine one of  them getting all gushy about a kit that only accepts a Rotax 912S?  What  about the guys who are twitching to rebuild and install Lycoming or Continental  mills? There are also quite a few folks out there flying behind Jabirus who  would not accept the statement about their engines not being proven  yet. The cabin space looks cramped too but that may be a false impression I  got form the drawings on the Vans site.  Vangrunsven is definitely not a  lightweight but there are other valid opinions that won't go away just because  he brings a competing plane to the market. It is likely that ZAC will  continue  to add more CAN punched matched hole convenience to future kits which  will further dilute some of the Van's advantage.

  

 The  Zodiac will continue to flourish because of its anachronistic character..... it  accepts the desire of some to experiment and offers a successful track record to  others. The RV-12 will likely do very well as all Van's other kits have.... I  don't see either one on an endangered species list anytime  soon.

  

 Just  my opinion,

  

  Ed  Moody II

 Rayne,  LA

 601XL  / Jab 3300

  

 Allen  wrote:

  

 By the way, the RV12 factory workmanship is  beautiful, and it's pushrod control so it will have that "RV"   feeling.  The wings are also a relatively quick fold.  I think  Zenith will have a tough time selling kits when the -12 comes out.  The only disadvantage I see it  the fuel tank behind the seats.  The fuel tank was put behind the seats to  make the wing folding easier.  

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   Allen Ricks

   Zodiac XL    builder

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