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rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
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 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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At 10:40 AM 8/6/2006, Edward Moody II wrote:
| Quote: | I'm sure that the RV-12 will be a fine plane and another example of
what great kits Van's puts out. But I would not be making any
funeral arrangements for the 601XL just yet.
On the individuality issue, the RV-12 loses to the 601XL on the
issue of engine choice.
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To add a bit of detail to this, if you look at the side view about
halfway down the page
http://vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm
you can see that the pilot & passenger's feet are actually partway
_under_ the back of the Rotax engine. They did this in order to get
the people _in_front_ of the spar instead of the normal _on_top_ of
the spar. This is why the concrete limitation of using only the
Rotax engine; because of it's physical package it's probably the only
100hp engine that will fit and keep an acceptable CG.
Regards,
RonB
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admin(at)arachnidrobotics
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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Insurance companies will charge extra for anything they can charge extra for. Give them a reason not to cover something, and it won't be covered. You'll find that most of them don't care for homebuilt aircraft at all, regardless of what engine you're running. If I ever start basing my decision on recommendations from the insurance company, please, just shoot me. I don't deserve to live.
There doesn't exist much data on certified failures vs conversion failures, but if you search the NTSB archives, you can get a good feel for it. Be carefull though. There's no data as to whether the failure was a design flaw, or because Joe Idiot decided he could build an engine.
There have been an awful lot of homebuilts I wouldn't plant my butt in, while others looked as thought the skunkworks had cooked them up behind closed doors. They were simply beautiful. I'm sure the same goes for engines. Are you a mechanic? Do you trust your skills? Have you researched your engine choice? Then by all means go for it. If the answer to any of those questions is no, then plant your butt behind a Lycosaur with the rest of the spam can jockies and be happy. You're still flying an airplane that you built!
"Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou(at)hunton.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
Are you saying that auto conversions and certified engines generally experience roughly the same number of in-flight power failures? I've never seen data either way, so you may be right. But I am pretty confident that the insurance companies don't have this view.
What leads you to this
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pacificpainting(at)comcas
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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What's the price of the RV-12 supposed to be?
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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It's still in developement so I don't know if anyone has a fix on price yet.
Ed
Do Not Archive
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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Hi Doug,
Under ideal conditions, if everyone was an “engine guy”, the automotive
conversions would not be considered problematic or present a fear factor
for so many builders. If you stack engine failures specifically tied to
names like Ford, Subaru, Corvair, Allison or Merlin Rolls Royce, you’ll
find that, they hold up as well as Continental, Lycoming, Pratt &
Whitney, Franklin etc. The failures are pretty much the same.
Builders skew failure statistics with odd carburetion, poorly done
ignition, long prop extensions, imbalanced propellers, improper fuels,
poor cooling, lubrication and every manner of non-standard rebuild or
assembly. This does change perspective but not the failure rate for the
original engine (aircraft engine or automotive conversion). True, there
are more items to be responsible for with a conversion.
Insurance companies are only interested in long track records and
statistics for Type Certified engines to minimize their own risk. Few
conversions have STC track records or many aircraft applications that
connect with data that proves they’re safe. That doesn’t say anything
about whether they are safe. It just scares some people when they
contemplate use of an engine that isn’t certifiably standard or safe
regardless of the cost.
Sorry for the rant, but I’m comfortable with either kind of engine and
fly both.
Larry McFarland – 601HDS (Subaru power, originally an aircraft engine
converted to automobiles)
do not archive
Garrou, Douglas wrote:
[quote]
Are you saying that auto conversions and certified engines generally experience roughly the same number of in-flight power failures? I've never seen data either way, so you may be right. But I am pretty confident that the insurance companies don't have this view.
What leads you to this conclusion?
--
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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Hello Douglas,
We as builders cant take insurance co point of view as a eficiency parameter for the auto conversions "messure", they handle cold statitics,
Same happens with certified parameters, as an example: The only cerfified glue for wood is (or used to be) Resorcinol, well epoxy is better, but will not be accepted in a certfied airplane because is not certified (yet)...
Back with conversions: for a insurance co is the same (as a engine failure) a X engine hanged directly from the junkyard that has more chances and have failed in the past,, or a carefully converted by the instructions of a professional as WW or Great Plains or RAM or Raven... for mention a few.
For us builders there are two diferent engines (the X and the "Converted") and the way we build our airplane, our engine is going to be assembled the correct way... We are professional Amateurs 
Or some one of us can assemble a Lyco or Cont and fprget to torque a rod for example... and the engine looses a rod.
The insurance co will accept it, because is a Cert engine, file the case and will pay the insurance (if you win).
Also lets remember that they have two goals: Sell the insurance and Fight not to pay it....
Also is very dificult for a builder pilot to "build hours" in his airplane, so few hours a year we can fly, for any valid reason... so is not easy to find several 100 hrs in an engine very easy...
As you say in USA, Oof my soap box.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.
"Garrou, Douglas" <dgarrou(at)hunton.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Garrou, Douglas"
Are you saying that auto conversions and certified engines generally experience Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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Funny,
Van thought the Jabiru was good enough for the RV11…..
-Bruce
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Allen Ricks
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 6:13 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: total engine costs involved???
Bill,
Just so you're aware. When I asked Van's about the RV-12 at their open house, I was told there was NO WAY they would be interested in putting together a FWF for the Jabiru engine either,
as they (Van's) did not consider the Jabiru to be either proven, or a mainstream engine. At this time they will support no engine other than the Rotax 912, as it has been used in certified aircraft.
As an aside, the cost of a rebuilt to factory new limits O-235 and a Jabiru or Rotax is roughly the same. The O-235 is probably a little lower. The problem is the O-325 will eat about 90 lb's of your
gross weight.
By the way, the RV12 factory workmanship is beautiful, and it's pushrod control so it will have that "RV" feeling. The wings are also a relatively quick fold. I think Zenith will have a tough time selling
kits when the -12 comes out. The only disadvantage I see it the fuel tank behind the seats. The fuel tank was put behind the seats to make the wing folding easier.
Allen Ricks
Zodiac XL builder
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admin(at)arachnidrobotics
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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There has been no price set as of yet, but severl of the Van's staff have commented it wouldn't be significantly cheaper than the current 2 seat line. I'm not sure how, or even if, they justify that, but that's the word I've heard as of now...
Do Not Archive
Dave Ruddiman <pacificpainting(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Ruddiman"
What's the price of the RV-12 supposed to be?
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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: total engine costs involved??? |
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That isn't surprising when you consider that the RV7 complete kit cost only about $1,000 or so more than the Zodiac kit. The cost difference of these two planes begins to widen when the builder of the RV buysa 180 - 200 hp engine and a constant speed prop/prop governor and has his tanks built by a third party, etc.
The key dfference between the RV-12 and the 601XL seems to me to be about choices of engines, fuel capacity, and useful load rather than cost.
Ed Moody II
---- Tom and Bren Henderson <admin(at)arachnidrobotics.com> wrote:
| Quote: | There has been no price set as of yet, but severl of the Van's staff have commented it wouldn't be significantly cheaper than the current 2 seat line. I'm not sure how, or even if, they justify that, but that's the word I've heard as of now...
Do Not Archive
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