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small file Blank series V weight and balance
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AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I will try to attach a much smaller jpeg file that I found. Hope it comes0 thru ok. I don't know much about changing formats. I edited the numbers off0 of this one so you would have a blank one. I will also try the recommended way0 to reduce files. thanks and Good Luck. An associated note said

  

 " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection be limited to (unspecified)0 notch on Series V tail draggers when operating at CG stations forward of 11.700 inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a three point attitude upon0 landing at extreme forward CG stations with full flaps.

 FLIGHT LOAD FACTOR FLAPS UP + 3.8g - 1.52g"

  

 since our series 5 with 2.2 Eggenfellner subaru has electric trim0I0 cannot associate with notches of flaps.

W_&B.JPG

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

What was the source of the note?  First I have seen

that.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



..... An associated note said

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection be

 limited to (unspecified)  

 notch on Series V tail draggers when operating at CG

 stations forward of 11.70  

 inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a

 three point attitude upon  

 landing at extreme forward CG stations with full

 flaps......


	


__________________________________________________

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

the source of this note is page 2-4 "OWNERS MANUAL AND PILOTS OPERATING0 HANDBOOK SERIES V" dated July 2004

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Attached is subject page from SERIES V POH page 2-4. I found a way to0 reduce it from 2.4mb to 266.4KB. Hope I can figure a way to repeat it for future0 X-MSN.

  

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader0 <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



What was the source of the0 note?  First I have seen

that.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI0 turbo



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



...... An associated note0 said

 	  Quote: 	
		    

 " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection0 be

 limited to (unspecified)  

 notch on Series V tail0 draggers when operating at CG

 stations forward of 11.70  

0 inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a

 three point attitude0 upon  

 landing at extreme forward CG stations with full

0 flaps......

W_&B.JPG

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Filesize:

266.41 KB

Viewed:

233 Time(s)

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I can confirm it is true on my S-5 for over 50% flaps

and FWD CG.  I run out of trim at around 60 knots and

no flaps.  Still can get enough elevator until 1/2

flaps.  After that it is difficult to get the tail

down with FWD CG.  Just never saw it in a note before.

Kurt S.

--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Attached is subject page from SERIES V POH page 2-4.

 I found a way to  reduce 

 it from 2.4mb to 266.4KB. Hope I can figure a way to

 repeat it for future  

 X-MSN.

 <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

 What was the source of the  note?  First I have seen

 that.

 Kurt S.  S-5/NSI  turbo

 --- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:

 ...... An associated note  said

 >  

 > " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection  be

 > limited to (unspecified)  

 > notch on Series V tail  draggers when operating at

 CG

 > stations forward of 11.70  

 >  inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a

 > three point attitude  upon  

 > landing at extreme forward CG stations with full

 >  flaps......

__________________________________________________

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Hummm.  Didn't have it in my older copy I guess or I

think I would have remembered it.  Mine is at the

hangar.  I'll have to check it later to be sure.



Kurt S.



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   the source of this note is page 2-4 "OWNERS MANUAL

 AND PILOTS OPERATING HANDBOOK SERIES V" dated July 2004


	


__________________________________________________

kr2(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Hi Kurt,I am also having a hard time with full elevator control for a stal

landing,I am landing with no flaps and seem to flair high and then

drop...no bounces yet lol...,I am flying with 2 200lb pilots and 26gal fuel

so I know Im heavy,but can we get more elevator authority?

Thanks for your input.........Kitfox4..N61AC



  Mark.

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 8/8/2006 9:27:31 PM

 Subject: Re: small file Blank series V weight and balance 



 

<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I can confirm it is true on my S-5 for over 50% flaps

 and FWD CG.  I run out of trim at around 60 knots and

 no flaps.  Still can get enough elevator until 1/2

 flaps.  After that it is difficult to get the tail

 down with FWD CG.  Just never saw it in a note before.



 Kurt S.



 --- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



 > Attached is subject page from SERIES V POH page 2-4.

 > I found a way to  reduce 

 > it from 2.4mb to 266.4KB. Hope I can figure a way to

 > repeat it for future  

 > X-MSN.

 >  

 > 

 > <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > What was the source of the  note?  First I have seen

 > that.

 > 

 > Kurt S.  S-5/NSI  turbo

 > 

 > --- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:

 > 

 > ...... An associated note  said

 > >  

 > > " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection  be

 > > limited to (unspecified)  

 > > notch on Series V tail  draggers when operating at

 > CG

 > > stations forward of 11.70  

 > >  inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a

 > > three point attitude  upon  

 > > landing at extreme forward CG stations with full

 > >  flaps......



 __________________________________________________

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

In the two kitfoxes I have flown the cushions and my belly seem to block0 full up elevator travel, so I fly with no back cushion and had to make a cutout0 in the seat cushion. You might check yours for this problem. On the Citabria I0 have to lower my grip to keep my fingers out of the gut and I'm only 185 lb, 60 ft.

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

what is your c.g. you may need weight in the tail and should have0at0 least a mid range c.g.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I kept my CG forward so that I could carry a large

load in the baggage area with no problem.  If I need

to move it aft some, I have a second battery just aft

of the firewall that I can relocate further aft to

make fine adjustments.



I calculate it will hold 135 lbs in the back, even

with full fuel and 2 people and still be OK.  Running

empty, a 170 lb pilot can run all but the header tank

dry and still be in CG.  I am over that weight, so

I've got all the fuel available too.



This does mean that I have a forward CG with no other

load on board though.  But on my cross country flights

the average load puts it in a great place for an

enjoyable ride.



For landing, I normally use 1/2 flaps and push flaps

up on touchdown.  It sits right down and stays there. 

No flaps, I have to be careful or it will bounce, if I

don't stick the tail right.  So far I do my best

landings when no one is looking and flub it

publically.  



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   what is your c.g. you may need weight in the tail

 and should have at least a mid range c.g.


	


__________________________________________________

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I made cutouts for the sticks too.  Origionally had

the sticks stop just forward of the seat, but later

adjusted the elevator so they stopped more forward.



My problem is not my gut but my legs reducing lateral

stick when it is back.  I like all the crosswind

control I can get when landing.  The more forward the

stick, the less I hit my legs. Still I probably only

get 50% throw stick back, unless I shove the stick

hard against my legs.



Kurt S.  S-5



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the two kitfoxes I have flown the cushions and my

 belly seem to block  

 full up elevator travel, so I fly with no back

 cushion and had to make a cutout  

 in the seat cushion. You might check yours for this

 problem. On the Citabria I 

  have to lower my grip to keep my fingers out of the

 gut and I'm only 185 lb, 6  ft.


	


__________________________________________________

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I closed the gap from the stabilizer to the verticle

stab hatches with foam as much as I could when I built

mine just to increase the elevator authority.  It has

no gap now when at full nose up stab.  (stab front

down to the widest part of the verticle stab)



Later I plan to put in gap seals too.  If that isn't

enough, I can add VG's under the stab or move that

little battery I have just aft of the firewall to

adjust the CG a little.



But for elevator authority you need to close the gaps,

make sure you have full elevator deflection, but no

more, and then stay within CG limits.  That should do

it.  Move some weight aft if you need to.



For some of my testing, I installed a 7 gal water tank

in the cargo bay aft end and that gave me near

centered CG.  That didn't do as much as you might

expect to increase the elevator authority.  Only near

aft CG limits made a big difference and I don't like

flying it like that for other reasons.



I compare my plane's feel to a C-180 with a stick and

twice the roll rate.  In calm air, it feels like a

heavier plane, but it is still only takes a flick of

the stick to go where I want.  



Kurt S.  S-5



--- Mark Thompson <kr2(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Kurt,I am also having a hard time with full

 elevator control for a stall

 landing,I am landing with no flaps and seem to flair

 high and then

 drop...no bounces yet lol...,I am flying with 2

 200lb pilots and 26gal fuel

 so I know Im heavy, but can we get more elevator

 authority?

 Thanks for your input.........Kitfox4..N61AC

 

   Mark


	


__________________________________________________

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I think we had a similar discussion a while back. Try closing the gaps on

the elevator with clear tape, as seen on the Sportflight pics. While I can't

confirm a huge change on mine, others swear by it for getting elevator

effectiveness. I noticed an improvement, but nothing radical.



Also, a forward CG is a classic scenario of running out of elevator at low

speeds (in the flare). As the CG moves aft, the elevator gets move

authority, but it also gets more sensitive to small inputs at higher speeds.

Eventually it will get uncontrollable. Forward is better than aft, but you'd

be relegated to wheel landings.



Airplanes have loading limits, i.e., limited fuel with two passengers, etc.

You might want to check your W&B and see how different loadings affect you.

If you've not looked at it that way, you might be surprised.



My 2 runs out of elevator really quick with flap landings, but the gap seals

helped a little. Going from memory, a test I read showed that even a small

gap in a control surface reduces control effectiveness by as much as 30%. Hi

pressure always seeks low pressure, and it flows very nicely through that

gap. Thereby that air leak is not working for you.

Bradley



--

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I should pass on something I found to give more tail down authority.



When I built my plane I wasn't sure where the adjustment should be on the

trim screw jack.  So I put it about mid point.   During a recent condition

inspection, I got curious and found that I was not getting the leading edge

of the horizontal stabilizer down as far as I could.  So I moved the

connection on the screw jack to a low as I could get it.  



This gives me much more tail down authority.  I can put the tail wheel down

first even with full flaps.  I have only tried dumping flaps a couple of

times.  It works well, but I feel I am busy enough on landing without adding

another task.  



Randy  Series 5/7



.           

--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

My CoG position sounds identical to yours Kurt, by my self I tend to do wheelers mostly for the same reason, but must try the dropping flap mthod. And yes, every time...old days I'd do 'greezers' all day in the old 188, come back to home base and 'plonk' every time!! 

 

 [quote]   

From:  kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Date:  Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:53:02 -0700 (PDT)

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



I kept my CG forward so that I could carry a large

load in the baggage area with no problem.  If I need

to move it aft some, I have a second battery just aft

of the firewall that I can relocate further aft to

make fine adjustments.



I calculate it will hold 135 lbs in the back, even

with full fuel and 2 people and still be OK.  Running

empty, a 170 lb pilot can run all but the header tank

dry and still  be in CG.  I am over that weight, so

I've got all the fuel available too.



This does mean that I have a forward CG with no other

load on board though.  But on my cross country flights

the average load puts it in a great place for an

enjoyable ride.



For landing, I normally use 1/2 flaps and push flaps

up on touchdown.  It sits right down and stays there.

No flaps, I have to be careful or it will bounce, if I

don't stick the tail right.  So far I do my best

landings when no one is looking and flub it

publically.  



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- AMuller589(at)aol.com wrote:



[quote] what is your c.g. you may need weight in the tail

 and should have at least a mid range

Copy_of_RJA_W_Bal.xls

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Filename:

Copy_of_RJA_W_Bal.xls

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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

I find that gap seals make quite a improvement. 



  



 

 [quote]   

From:  "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Date:  Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:22:03 -0400

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net>



I think we had a similar discussion a while back. Try closing the gaps on

the elevator with clear tape, as seen on the Sportflight pics. While I can't

confirm a huge change on mine, others swear by it for getting elevator

effectiveness. I noticed an improvement, but nothing radical.



Also, a forward CG is a classic scenario of running out of elevator at low

speeds (in the flare). As the CG moves aft, the elevator gets move

authority, but it also  gets more sensitive to small inputs at higher speeds.

Eventually it will get uncontrollable. Forward is better than aft, but you'd

be relegated to wheel landings.



Airplanes have loading limits, i.e., limited fuel with two passengers, etc.

You might want to check your W&B and see how different loadings affect you.

If you've not looked at it that way, you might be surprised.



My 2 runs out of elevator really quick with flap landings, but the gap seals

helped a little. Going from memory, a test I read showed that even a small

gap in a control surface reduces control effectiveness by as much as 30%. Hi

pressure always seeks low pressure, and it flows very nicely through that

gap. Thereby that air leak is not working for you.

Bradley



--

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Hi Randy,



I am trying to remember from construction.  Was the

slot in the access panel for the stab leading edge

already cut?  Did yours go to the bottom of the slot

origionally and you cut more out, or did you already

have more room?  I am just trying to figure an easy

point of comparison.....



Kurt S.



--- Randy  Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I should pass on something I found to give more tail

 down authority.

 

 When I built my plane I wasn't sure where the

 adjustment should be on the

 trim screw jack.  So I put it about mid point.  

 During a recent condition

 inspection, I got curious and found that I was not

 getting the leading edge

 of the horizontal stabilizer down as far as I could.

  So I moved the

 connection on the screw jack to a low as I could get

 it.  

 

 This gives me much more tail down authority.  I can

 put the tail wheel down

 first even with full flaps.  I have only tried

 dumping flaps a couple of

 times.  It works well, but I feel I am busy enough

 on landing without adding another task.  

 

 Randy  Series 5/7


	


__________________________________________________

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Kurt,

That slot, cut by Skystar, was what got me looking at it again.  My trim was

not going all the way to the bottom of the slot.  Now it does.



I thought that slot was awful big when I was building.  But now I am using

all the slot!  Hopefully I am the only one to make this mistake.



Randy



.           



--

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

This is a recurring thread and often addresses the benefit of sealing the horizontal stabilizer/elevator gap.

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader 

 

 I kept my CG forward so that I could carry a large 

 load in the baggage area with no problem. If I need 

 to move it aft some, I have a second battery just aft 

 of the firewall that I can relocate further aft to 

 make fine adjustments. 

 

 I calculate it will hold 135 lbs in the back, even 

 with full fuel and 2 people and still be OK. Running 

 empty, a 170 lb pilot can run all but the header tank 

 dry and still be in CG. I am over that weight, so 

 I've got all the fuel available too. 

 

 This does mean that I have a forward CG with no other 

 load on board though. But on my cros  s coun   

&  > _

kr2(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: small file Blank series V weight and balance

Thanks John for the pics of the gap seals,this is the way I need to go.......Did you get this from spruce?

  

  Thanks Mark

  

 

  

 [quote] ---

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