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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
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 Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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| Quote: | I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point that we
can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about Scott Crossfield's
accident because that might not show the respect he deserves. We shouldn't
look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6 chopped up by a prop because it might
offend someone's sensibilities?
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I had never heard of Crossfield but my initial thought was that he screwed up
royally. That opinion has only been reinforced by obtaining additional info
about the pilot error leading to death event. I learned nothing from that
pilot
error event since I already know that flying into severe thunderstorms is
stupid.
The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever considered so
I did learn from it. The pictures were not gruesome but were very
informative. I
have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am I will make
appropriate
actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
I often hear after aviation fatalities that we can all learn from
it. Personally in recent
years I don't recall any that I learned from except for this taxiing
death. There may
have been others that I don't recall. Fact is that pilots have always done
stupid
things that result in fatalities. I suspect that they always will and I
see no way to
dramatically reduce those pilot error fatalities.
It would be great if the RV community could do something to reduce fatal
pilot errors.
Perhaps some sort of web-based training that discusses the major causes of
deaths
from pilot errors. If that training resulted in a reduction in insurance
rates I would do
it every year. Ideally it would mean fewer RV pilot deaths.
And it would include photos.
Ron Lee
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rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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Well said, Terry.
I would make the same request should I end up an aviation accident
statistic. The taxi accident situation applies to all of us and we
should learn from it.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Terry Watson wrote:
| Quote: |
This is bit of a rant and you may have heard it from me before, so of course
delete if you want. Strong disagreement would be appropriate if you think
I'm off base.:
...........
I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point that we
can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about Scott Crossfield's
accident because that might not show the respect he deserves. We shouldn't
look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6 chopped up by a prop because it might
offend someone's sensibilities?
None of us get out of this life alive and it stands to reason and past
experience that some of us are going to take our RV's with us. So again and
again, we are going to face the choice of trying to learn from a tragic
event, or to avert our eyes and avoid question or comment lest we offend the
dead, injured, their survivors, family, friends, or those who would have
been friends had they had a chance to know them. If you have been on this
list for very long you have likely lost good friends and friends you hadn't
actually met face to face yet.
So here's MY request: If I screw up, or am the victim of someone else's
screw-up, or if my tail falls off because I forgot to bolt it on properly or
if I land long on a short runway or short of a long runway or if I scud run
myself into a mountain, or run out of gas crossing Puget Sound, please feel
free to postulate, speculate, blame, ridicule or whatever it takes to learn
enough from my misfortune, bad judgment or stupidity to prevent some other
soul from doing what lead to my demise. If I survive my misadventure I will
most likely want to set the record straight or paint myself in a more heroic
light, but if I don't, you will be on your own to sort it out.
Make the best of it.
What do you think the military's accident rate would be like if the S.O.P.
after an accident was for everyone to stick their head in the sand and
pretend it didn't happen?
My apologies in advance if anyone feels flamed by this. I do not want to
offend, just convince you that the more we know the safer we are. They put a
sheet over dead bodies out of respect of the dead and the sensibilities of
the living. That, in my mind, is the appropriate amount of censorship.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Seattle
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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I agree whole heartedly, There is a reason that the Military preaches
lessons learned, and any family that has lost someone, would certainly
want others to avoid the tragedy by learning the lesson from another's
mistake.
Keep reviewing the lessons learned from each and every incident and we
will break the chain, and prevent it from happening again.
Dan
40269 (N289DT)
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khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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| Quote: |
The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever
considered so
I did learn from it. The pictures were not gruesome but were very
informative. I
have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am I
will make appropriate
actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
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I think there is another, more general, lesson that we should take
from this accident. It is quite likely that the Avenger pilot knew
that taxing on a narrow taxi way with many other aircraft was risky.
But he probably justified it with something like: "I've done this
before, and it went OK, so it'll be OK this time too", or "Other war
bird pilots do it, so it must be safe enough", or "If I stop and shut
down until I get a wing walker, it will really mess up the other
aircraft."
Just because you've done something risky before, and got away with
it, doesn't mean you'll get away with it again.
Just because other people do it, and get away with it, doesn't mean
you'll get away with it.
Just because stopping isn't convenient, doesn't mean that continuing
is a safe thing to do.
Don't cut corners on safety.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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mike
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Accident photos |
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personally I think all these big aircraft should have their own runway and park in their own parking area at OSH from now on, just my opinion.
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klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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>>The Avenger pilot reported that the airplane in front of the0 Avenger was a green and white, high wing airplane with TUNDRA written on top of0 the wing.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that he observed the Tundra pilot taxi0 off the right side of the taxiway for some unknown reason.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that he spotted the airplane that was in0 front of the Tundra airplane, and he stated that he had "100 yards of free0 pavement" in front of the Avenger.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that when he heard the impact and saw0 debris flying, he shut down the engine. He reported that he never saw the0 airplane that he hit while he was taxiing.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he was taxiing behind a green and0 white, high wing airplane that had TUNDRA painted on the top of the wing.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that a gray airplane was in front of the0 Tundra aircraft.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he "didn't know the TBM was behind" his0 airplane.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he was not sure if he was taxiing0 forward or if he was stopped when the Avenger struck the RV-6 from behind.
Based on their respective statements,0 it looks like neither the TBM-Avenger Pilot, -nor the RV-6 Pilot knew about the0 presence of each other!
How could that be possible, as0 clearly at least one of the two pilots should have known of the proximity of the0 other at one point in time while on the same taxiway?0
I have met the Pilot of0 the TBM & his wife (who was with him in the0 backseat). He is well0 known for repairing-, restoring- & flying all kinds0 of Warbirds, and has done so for all his adult life. He is a0 very careful operator of the expensive machines entrusted into his care. He is0 not a risktaker. Needless to say,0 he and his wife are just devastated about this freak accident that0 cost someone his life.
My heartfelt condolences go out to0 the accident victim and his family. This accident should not have0 happened.
I was not present in either0 one cockpit-, nor did I see the actual accident happen.
Everything else is just speculation based on incomplete information given ...
---
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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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Ron,
You say we don't ever learn or can't be taught to avoid stupid
accidents. That's not true. Just yesterday I almost read about 4
accidents that didn't happen because the pilots were awares from lessons
learned from others less fortunate. We can check the NTSB to see read
about the stupid-pilot-tricks that are still being pulled. What we
don't get to read about are the tens, hundreds or even thousands of
accidents that don't happen because of training, education,
lessons-learned and peer pressure to do better.
Chuck
[quote] --
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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: Accident photos |
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Chuck, you either misunderstood me or I was not clear in my message.
I said (I think) that I rarely learn from these accidents because they are
things that I already know (previously learned). The Avenger/RV6 death
was a new one for me and was a learning experience.
I don't have statistics on accidents but I would guess that running out
of fuel and flying into bad weather are major causal factors. If people
really learned then those should soon be minor causal factors. Yet
year after year they still cause problems. Why is that? My guess is
that there will always be pilots who are destined to die or have a
non-fatal accident for things that are preventable. It is human nature.
I would hope that you do not need to hear every few months about a
person dying because he flew into a thunderstorm to know that you should
not. So my view is that saying that we can all learn from such an event
is as useful as saying that at least the pilot died doing something he loved.
Your assertion about 10s,100s or 1000s of people not having accidents
because of something they learned (NTSB report?) frankly is not verifiable.
I would believe that the pilot community as a whole DID LEARN if some
sort of educational process were implemented and within a year or so
you saw dramatic reduction in a given accident cause (such as flying
into weather).
My final comment about RV community training was aimed at that so if
you or anyone else has ideas on how RV pilots could truly learn and
drastically reduce current accident causal factors then we should try it.
I am more than eager to learn of ways to reduce my genetic disposition to
doing stupid things. Until then, I will just continue my normal conservative
flying.
Ron Lee
At 01:23 PM 8/7/2006, you wrote:
[quote]
Ron,
You say we don't ever learn or can't be taught to avoid stupid
accidents. That's not true. Just yesterday I almost read about 4
accidents that didn't happen because the pilots were awares from lessons
learned from others less fortunate. We can check the NTSB to see read
about the stupid-pilot-tricks that are still being pulled. What we
don't get to read about are the tens, hundreds or even thousands of
accidents that don't happen because of training, education,
lessons-learned and peer pressure to do better.
Chuck
> --
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michele.delsol(at)microsi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: Accident photos |
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Here is another tragedy which I relate to emphasize the need to be very
attentive as to what we do when flying. I personally know all the
protagonists, including the dead pilot, but not the controller at the
control tower.
This happened this spring at my airport in France.
Cri-Cri (for those who are unfamiliar with this airplane - Cri-Cri is the
worlds smallest twin - empty weigh 190 lbs. - two one cylinder engines) was
on runway threshold - Cessna 150 was on short final. Airport is controlled -
this is all within two hundred yards of the control tower - grass runway
which passes 50 yards in front of the control tower. For some reason which
has not been determined, Cri-cri takes off, Cessna aborts landing,
presumably (nothing certain here as accident is still under investigation)
Cri-Cri got clearance to take off and Cessna was instructed to go around. To
make a long story short, Cri-Cri flew up into the Cessna's propeller -
Cessna chewed up the T-tail rudder and horizontal stabilizer of the Cri-Cri.
The collision occurred at approximately 150 ft above the ground. Without an
empennage, the Cri-cri tumbled forward head over heels and hit the ground
flat on its back on the runway from which it was taking off - the pilot was
killed instantly on impact. The crew of two in the Cessna safely managed to
make it back the other runway.
I relate this to emphasize that the PIC should not take anything for
granted. This concerns both the Cessna's and the Cri-Cri's PICs. At the
airport, no one is debating as to who is at fault - it is a tragic loss for
us and sobering as to the inherent risk of flying. One should be on guard at
all times and not take anything for granted. This accident, as the one at
Oshkosh, should never have happened.
Please do not ask questions on this accident - I just wanted to relate it so
that it should help us be more careful as we fly.
Michele
RV8 - Fuselage
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