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Flying without doors
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eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

many very fun and exciting hours flying with them0 open and or off the plane .A lot of times I will take off then after climb out0 open doors and let them fly in the breeze then before landing shut them . I have0 also landed with them open I do not have the gas struts on them so therefor they0 start to shut when slowing down in the rollout . 

 Fly safe fly low fly slow 

 John Perry

 Kitfox 2 N718PD

 582 c box /GSC 3 blade 

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]   ---

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

My experience flying with doors open in a Kitfox 4, my 10 year old son and I 

did a short x-country a few years back. We stopped for lunch in Wisconsin, 

landing was front left quartering x-wind 18 gusting to 22. I told my son to 

eat light because it was going to be a bumpy ride home, just in case right 

before we left I told him if he felt sick to pop the door open and let it 

fly. About 1/2 way home at 4K feet and cruising 70, with no warning he 

slipped his mic up on his headset, popped open the door and commenced to 

hang out on the ends of the shoulder harnesses and let it fly. He then 

gently rolled back in, slid his mic down and asked if I could get the door 

for him, I did so (Had pull straps mounted on the center bar of the door). 

We got home and his mom asked how the trip was, he said OK. The next day we 

had some cleanup to do on the tail of the plane. Flying with doors open and 

opening and closing in flight was no problem at the speeds my plane was 

capable of.  My door latches were twist latches at the bottom of the doors 

so I made an extension that would allow me to either latch the door 

completely closed or latch about 1/2" open, made for a nice breeze not to 

much.

Lloyd

---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Flying without doors

Steve,



The bubble doors are the only way to go on a Fox!  They add about 3" of shoulder room on each side and they give incredible visibility.  You can get them from John McBean at kitfoxaircraft.com or direct from lpaero.com.  The shipping is not cheap (neither are the doors) so be prepared.  I just ordered a pair for my Series 7 and the doors were $217 each and shipping was $87!  They are worth it in my mind.  Below is a picture of my model III (not mine anymore...sold it).



Darin

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Just some theoritical thoughts on - no turtledeck:



You stand the chance of turning the tail of your plane

into a big windsock, depending on the security of your

cargo compartment.



You can add a lot of turbulence to the tail and reduce

controlability.



You would probably lose 10-15% of your lift.



That would draw a lot of air thru the cockpit and put

more pressure on the windscreen.  It could be very

windy inside.



Don't think you would like it on purpose, but you

could get home if it happened by mistake, long as it

didn't jamb in the tail somewhere.



Kurt S.



--- Randy  Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Wing nut,

 

 I fly my series 5/7 with doors open.  But I do try

 to limit speed to about 85 mph.



 There was a caution on the list a while back to NOT

 fly without the turtle

 deck.   I don't have any experience with this, but

 can believe that is not a good idea.



 Randy


	


__________________________________________________

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

And then Lloyd said:



 	  Quote: 	
		   ..."so I made an extension that would allow me to

either latch the door completely closed or latch about
	


1/2" open, made for a nice breeze not to much."

 	  Quote: 	
		   Lloyd


	


It crossed my mind that you could add a snap strap, or

velcro strap to the bottom of the door and let it open

only a few inches in flight, if you want.  Whatever

amount necessary for a nice breeze without it having

to be all or nothing.



Attach the strap to the door and the loose end to

another spot up the door frame when not in use.  Add a

fastener to the front, bottom door sill or some other

convienent place and attach the end of the strap there

before you unlatch the door in flight.  Let the strut

hold it out against the strap.



Now you've got big controllable vents without much

weight or hardware!  No broken door glass from cracked

vent holes either.



Thanks Lloyd  



Kurt S.



__________________________________________________

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: Flying without doors

A couple of other things I just thought of and have not seen mentioned:  

  1.  Opening and closing in flight has been no problem for me.  Just open and close normally.  Feels a little different but works just the same.  No side slips or skids requierd to open or close.  

  2.  If you land on a wet surface the stuff that normally spins off the tire onto the wing will be on the inside of your door.

  3.  I have slipped to a landing with both doors open.  Probably will not again after hearing the suggestion about the turtle deck blow out.  Certainly will not slip an open door into the wind with the opposite door closed.

   

  Maxwell S6/TD/IO240



Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell  Fitt" 



This post brings to mind a flutter I had early this year. I attributed it 

to weak gas struts. I ordered new ones and for the one most often open - 

mine, I ordered a stronger strut. No problems since.



Lowell

---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Regarding removing the turtledeck;

  

 I would NEVER fly a Kitfox (or Avid) with the0 turtledeck removed.  By removing it you have just eliminated the top0 half of the bearing surfaces that hold your flaperon in place.  That means0 your flaperon is now going to be able to move up and down in flight. 0 That is really bad because it could create flutter in the flaperon itself. 0 And if that happens with enough speed you could also cause wing damage.  In0 a worse case scenario wing separation...(yikes!)  I don't know about you,0 but I don't need that much fresh air...

  

 Regarding doors open in flight;

  

 My float equipped Model IV with LP Aero bubble0 doors does not act like my old Avid Flyers or older Kitfoxes with the0 undercambered airfoil and the less bubbled doors do.  The early0 airplanes flew just fine with the doors open or closed, or removed0 completely.   In summer I rarely flew with doors0 closed. My Kitfox IV on the other hand needs to be slowed down to 800 mph or less in order to open the doors without them slamming up against the0 bottom of the wing (causing not only potential door glass damage,0 strut damage, and door frame twisting, but also the glass rubbing against the0 bottom of the wing fabric effectively scuffs [sands] the door0 glass).  So I do not fly with the doors open on my Kitfox at this0 time.  To correct this concern I am going to make a bracket that is0 held in place by the wing tank fuel drain fitting, that will let the0 door rest against it (probably will have a rubber pad where it touches0 the glass) when the door is completely open.  Maybe it's just my Kitfox,0 but I thought I would share this with the group should someone else experience0 the same problem.  

  

 If my attachments go through (?), here are two0 photos that show how the bubble doors fit when full open against0 the bottomside of the laminar flow Riblett wing.  The bubbles0 definitely limit your ability to get them up against the wing0 bottom.

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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Flying without doors

On the subject of fresh air;

  

 The NACA scoops on the side of my cowl (see pics in0 previous post) really provide a lot of fresh air.  So much in fact they0 will blow papers around in the cockpit if not stowed.  And I don't mean a0 little, but a lot!  A couple of days ago I had to retrieve a map from the0 back turtledeck area that was blown back there after I set it down on the0 passenger seat while flying.  Even in the 97 degree 97% humidity0 weather we endured here in Wisconsin this summer, I was generally able to0 stay cool. (yes, I just had to go flying when it was that hot.  I0 wanted to see how well my fox would perform off the asphalt, as well as the0 water under those conditions.  I was pleasantly surprised...)

  

 Opening the doors a half inch or so does seem0 to be an easy way to get a lot of fresh air, but overall I've found the0 NACA scoops to be equally effective.   Not only do they give0 you a lot of air, but they blow it right on you.   So if you are0 still building, or are considering modification, I highly recommend putting them0 in. 

  

 On a last note;  A friend of mine with a model0 III Kitfox installed the rotating scoops that fit in the lexan.  But he0 installed his on top of the cabin (right in the windshield lexan) right above0 the front carry through tube.  Being they pointed directly into the0 slipstream, they worked well also.  And if he didn't want them he just0 turned them backwards, or pulled them in altogether, closing them0 off.  Just another idea.  Would be an easy modification to any0 existing airplane.  

  

 Paul Seehafer

 Model IV  912ul on Aerocet0 Amphibs

occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Flying without doors

HI Paul. My IV has no static air system  and I0 wonder about the high volume of air through the NACA vents affecting the  instruments. Any experience? 

 [quote]   ---

Wilson(at)REinfo.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Any contact info for L/P areo plastics?

Steve Wilson



---

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Flying without doors

www.lpaero.com



Click on the "Contact us" link and scroll down to the bottom.  They have their phone numbers listed in the address in the middle of the page.



Darin

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Actually you can get them from us.... Model IV Clear are $217 ea. plus

shipping....



Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

www.kitfoxaircraft.com

"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"



--

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Flying without doors

I find that just the rotating vent on the lower part of the clear windo is0 sufficient in Houston, year round. Cheap simple reliable and water/rain0 proof.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Flying without doors

On Aug 10, 2006, at 5:53 PM, Dave G. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   HI Paul. My IV has no static air system  and I wonder about the high 

 volume of air through the NACA vents affecting the instruments. Any 

 experience?


	


Here is something very strange, Dave. My Kitfox 3 had also the NACA 

vents and no static port. I didn't notice a difference with the vents 

open. But one and half year ago, I installed a Jabiru (had a 582 

before) and because of the Jabiru need for proper air cooling under the 

cowling, and my extensive modification of the cowling, when I tested 

the engine, I noticed a strong depression in the cockpit as, on the 

ground, after setting the altimeter to QNH, I was ... above the 

airfield. So I installed a static port going all the way back to the 

tail and it is fine now. But I don't understand why the low pressure 

since my firewall should be airtight.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Fly floats... that will keep0 the dirt off the underside of the wings 

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Paul:

  

 That's a very nice plane you0 have there.  I was wondering about your prop.  It looks like an0 Ivo.  Is it in-flight adjustable? 

  

 I have the Aerocet straight0 floats on my 582 B box powered mod III-A.  They are a hard act to follow on0 the water.  I haven't tried the Full Lotus  floats yet but I can't see0 how they would handle better on the water than the Areocets.  I would love0 to have the amphibs.  If you ever decide to sell those floats keep me in0 mind.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

John: do you have them for the model III?



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Paul, 

  

 I fly with left door open lots and here is what i0 find ( also for the record I have the bowed doors with lexan but no bubble0 windows) 

 I lose a few mph in cruise and I say alot cooler on0 hot days. 

 My ASI reads lower that with door shut as I have no0 external static port.

 My Left door at times opens on take off  and0 in flight but really no big deal -  ( if you have not experienced this,0 than you should as if is the cause of a quite a few accidents0 yearly. )

 I will slip with out issues with door open or shut0 although the door does come unlatched at times from the fully open position and0 will hang in wind and even close at times. I do not have gas0 struts.

  

 I would like to add a few points on turtle decks0 that I have seen.  And none have blown off but I think it would be0 possible.  On some after market turtledecks  that I have seen 0 they have lacked an upper and lower bearing support for the flapperon horn (I0 hope this is the right word)  I wold think that this bearing is very0 critical in ensuring that the horn is supported.  With out that0 support  could the flapperon horn come lose from the flapperon?  0 If so a flutter " could result"  and could cause alot of control issues as0 well as wing failure.

  

 Dave

 KF IV

  

  

 [quote]   ---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Paul sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  By removing it you have just eliminated the top half of the bearing 

surfaces that hold your flaperon in place. That means your flaperon 

is now going to be able to move up and down in flight.


	


I don't know what model Kitfox you have, Paul, but that certainly 

wasn't true of mine.  My Model IV Speedster simply had a slot cut 

into each side of the turtle deck to allow the flaperon horn to pass 

through.  The flaperons were completely supported by the wing 

brackets and moved just fine with or without the turtle deck in place.



That said, there are plenty of other reasons not to attempt flight 

without the turtle deck in place.



Mike G.

N728KF

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Or if like me, you taxi with the door open early in the morning on a 

grass strip, the little living creatures that get spun up from the 

tires wedge into the door tube/ window junction and are a bear to clean 

out. One more reason to finish painting the wheel pants and get them on.



Lynn

On Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 08:45  AM, W Duke wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   2.  If you land on a wet surface the stuff that normally spins off the 

 tire onto the wing will be on the inside of your door.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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