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Hinge less ailerons
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John.Hines(at)craftontull
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I never said I didn't trust the design.  If you look back at my original

post I asked 2 questions.  



1.  Does the piano hinge give it better motion?

2.  How much weight does it add?



In the demo plane there was definitely a different amount of force

needed for roll compared to pitch.  I never said it was excessive, just

that it was different.  I'm just asking if the hinge makes a more

uniform feel of the controls.  Now I suppose this will go on and on like

scotch brite and Corvair discussions.  If you don't have or have never

flown a 601 with a hinge then it is impossible to answer the first

question.



John



John R. Hines

IT Manager

Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc.

901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200

Rogers, AR 72756

Office: 479-878-2449

Mobile: 479-366-4783

Fax: 479-631-6224

John.Hines(at)craftontull.com

www.craftontull.com



Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

--

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

FWIW, I have installed hinges on my ailerons.  However, it had nothing to do with the realtive merits of hinged versus hingless.  I had already decided to go with the Zenith design.  However, when I went to install the first aileron, a problem popped up.  If I aligned the aileron with the flap, using the pre-drilled holes in the wing skin, I had about 2mm edge distance on the aileron skin.  I even considered riveting a strip to the aileron edge to stay with the0"flex" hinge.  That just didn't sit well with me. In the end, it still0required extra wide hinges to solve the problem.  

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage

rjp(at)pizer.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I have a factor built 601 with hinged ailerons and notice a bend of the

ailerons on the attachment point of  the hinge and aileron in  flight. I

would beef up this area if someone was going to use  the hinge design. The

aircraft has 150 hours on it and I do fly over the sierras and encounter

rough weather which places a lot of stress on the ailerons. -----Original

Message-----

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Bryant

Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 11:22 AM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons






Here's what Chris Heinz says about the hingeless ailerons:



Whereas a hinge has rotating parts (friction, wear and the need to be 

lubricated), the "hingeless hinge" has no parts with relative motion because



the deflection is provided by flexing part 'a' (which is an extension of the



aileron skin). If the length 'a' is of the order of 3/4" to 1", the 

thickness of the flexing metal being .016", the metal being 6061-T6, and the



deflection of the aileron a maximum of +/- 15 degrees, we can, using 

available deflection statistics for recreational airplanes, calculate the 

fatigue life of the metal.



It is some 120,000 hours, which, reduced by the safety factor of 8 (usual 

when analysis is performed), amounts to 15,000 hours flying time.



Now to be absolutely sure, we also performed fatigue tests. It was easy to 

replace the aileron bellcrank with an electric motor and an eccentric moving



the rod and aileron. We had 3 eccentrics for 3 stages of deflection to 

reproduce the above mentioned statistics and, knowing that the motor's RPM 

is 1700, we get 100,000 cycles per hour (CPM).

In a relatively short period, the cycles from the statistics could be 

applied to the deflection of the aileron for an aircraft utilization of 

10,000 flying hours. No crack (not even chipped paint) was noticed.



After that, and just to know if by any bad luck it did crack, do I have to 

repair it in the field, or can I fly safely home and fix it in the shop? I 

cut a 1/8" notch at both inboard and outboard ends of the flex area with 

snips and restarted running the tests.



After the equivalent of another 3 hours, the notch had developed into a 

crack reaching on one end the first rivet, and on the other end the second 

rivet through the wing skin and rear channel. The test was then continued 

for the equivalent of another 10,000 flying hours with no further 

deterioration.



The conclusions are: The "flex hinge" is adequate for the intended use 

(10,000 flying hours, which is an awful lot of time considering that most of



us fly about 50 hours per year; it's 200 years!). Also, if a (very unlikely)



crack would be discovered at the preflight check, you can safely fly home 

and then repair it!  I know of at least two Zodiacs having logged over 1600 

and 2100 hrs. respectively without any problem, so it definitely works!



A conventional hinged aileron adds weight and does not "look as good" as the



maintenance-free hingeless aileron - with its smooth surface and completely 

sealed gap.



You can also read this article online at: 

http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/ht-aileron.html

Thanks,



Randy

XL Wings - Plans Only

http://www.n344rb.com



Do Not Archive

---

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I have flown both and I really don't think there is much difference. I 

bought the hingeless kit but decided to convert it so I discussed this with 

Chris Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I ask Chris about using .025 angle to change it 

over, after review he gave it his blessing. Chris is a great guy to talk to, 

he understands the different preferences and that is why he offers both 

options. I was never concerned about the design, my reason was simple, I 

know the day will come when I will sell my plane and move on to land based 

toys. I think there is far more potential buyers that would be more 

comfortable with the typical hinge type versus hingeless. The controls are a 

little heavy but not excessive, but you need to consider most of my flight 

time was in a Grumman Tiger which has very light, responsive controls.



Clyde Barcus

601 XL, Corvair Powered

barcusc(at)comcast.net



DO NOT ARCHIVE



---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Hinge less ailerons

The answer to #2 is yes not much but some.



The answer to #1 is Maybe it does now but what about 4 years from now?

 	  John.Hines(at)craftontull wrote: 	
		  I never said I didn't trust the design.  If you look back at my original

post I asked 2 questions.  



1.  Does the piano hinge give it better motion?

2.  How much weight does it add?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I may be mistaken but I believe that in the test of the hingeless system, no 

cracks developed after 10,000 cycles of 15 degree deflections. They decided 

at that point to make a small v-shaped cut in the inboard and outboard edges 

of the test piece and run another 10,000 cycles to see if that wold induce 

any cracks. That was when the two cracks occured.



Ed Moody II



---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

Oops. My mistake. It was 10,000 simulated flying hours in the test, not 

10,000 cycles. I apologize.



Ed



---

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

Damn, let it go!!!!  Both options will work acceptably well in these airplanes.  Let's get back to the scotch brite.  Which color should I be using???

TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Hinge less ailerons

Isn't it odd that ZAC uses piano hinges on their own "Quick-Build" kits. I saw a kit up close and personal today. Makes you wonder, doesn't it. Just check out this photo from the ZAC website. Looks like a piano hinge to me.



http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/construction/qbk1.jpg



Dave Clay

Temple, TX

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I have heard that0 the type hinge that is simply a strip of metal that flexes is as safe as the0 regular piano hinge however, so many people expressed doubt and fear as to it's0 reliability, the ZodiacXL now has the piano aileron hinge as standard in the0 kit.

      I heard the same0 complaint about the first Pulsar with the Rotax 582 engine.  Most of us0 have used an out board engine and had to pull the plugs, clear and reset them0 very often and the feeling was that this would be the same in an airplane with0 the exception being that if the motor stops in an outboard, you use the oars and0 row to shore.  If this happens when you are flying along fat, dumb, and0 happy......Well need I say more.

  

 Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx

 ZodiacXL

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I wish to offer a small opinion on this issue. Both the hinged and hingless systems work well, both have merit to their use. When confronted with this question by a builder I simply ask what do you envision doing with your plane. Is it primarily for evening use flying to local fly-ins then opt for the hinged system for a more responsive snappy system. If you envision going on trips with your Zodiac then stick to the hingless system. Their really is little deflection necessary in most flight situations with the Zodiac and often it just comes down to pressure on the stick for course correction. The hingless system wishes to remain in a non deflected state allowing for prolonged hands off flying that you do not get with hinged systems, see why this is a benefit for longer trips? It allows the pilot more free time to unfold a paper map in his lap and draw out the flight plan and corrections( OK now that your all laughing your ass of with the vision of anyone still using paper maps in a cockpit and not just tuning in the GPS) But you get the point,   

distance flight =hingless  

Local flight = hinged  

This is just my recommendation and it is just a rule of thumb, neither is truly better then the other when compared over the whole community of builders it just depends on what you want to do with the plane that makes the difference to your choice.  

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I'll bet you can order the QB kit either way...



Randy



Do Not Archive



---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

The QBK is the base for the ELSA and SLSA created by AMD and it didn't

make sense to have various different QBK options so yes you only get

hinges on a QBK but remember most of those planes are used for flight

training, Some days they will never see anything but the circuit. And as

stated in a previous post 

short distance - hinged 

Traveling - hinge less

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 



--

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

You are installing a Corvair engine and are0 worried about resale for the aileron hinges????

  

  

  

 In a message dated 8/11/2006 5:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,0 barcusc(at)comcast.net writes:

 I have0   flown both and I really don't think there is much difference. I 

bought the0   hingeless kit but decided to convert it so I discussed this with 

Chris0   Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I ask Chris about using .025 angle to change it 

over,0   after review he gave it his blessing. Chris is a great guy to talk to, 

he0   understands the different preferences and that is why he offers both0   

options. I was never concerned about the design, my reason was simple, I0   

know the day will come when I will sell my plane and move on to land based0   

toys. I think there is far more potential buyers that would be more0   

comfortable with the typical hinge type versus hingeless. The controls are0   a 

[/quote]

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

OH NO, you did NOT just start that up again did you?! : )  Oh, and for what it's worth, you'll get as much for a well built XL with a Corvair as you would for a Jab, minus the difference in engine costs.  Which means....YOU'LL MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT WHEN YOU SELL A CORVAIR POWERED PLANE AS YOU WILL WHEN YOU SELL A JABIRU POWERED PLANE (give or take a bit.)  

     That ten thousand dollar difference in price is easily made up in the fact that it cost thousands less to get it in the air.  Oh, not to mention the fact that some people swear by them, not at them.  One more time as a group..."TO EACH THEIR OWN!"

 

NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		        You are installing a Corvair engine and are  worried about resale for the aileron hinges????

  

  

  

 In a message dated 8/11/2006 5:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  barcusc(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I have    flown both and I really don't think there is much difference. I 

bought the    hingeless kit but decided to convert it so I discussed this with 

Chris    Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I ask Chris about using .025 angle to change it 

over,    after review he gave it his blessing. Chris is a great guy to talk to, 

he    understands the different preferences and that is why he offers  both    

options. I was never concerned about the design, my reason was simple, I    

know the day will come when I will sell my plane and move on to land based    

toys. I think there is far more potential buyers that would be more    

comfortable with the typical hinge type versus hingeless. The controls are    a

LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

AMEN TOM!!!!

  

 Larry Husky0 

Lakeview, OR 

601XL / Corvair

Building Fuse



Do Not0 Archive

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

Hey! Wait a minute…Why, I oughta…..  

   

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 

 Tail done, wings almost done....   

Do not archive!  

   

   

…. ( OK now that your all laughing your ass of with the vision of anyone still using paper maps in a cockpit and not just tuning in the GPS)  

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac  Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com

barcusc(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I already considered your point, lets face it, that is a valid concern.0 After a lot of thought I decided if it doesn't sell I will sell it without0 the engine or replace it with a Lycoming or Continental and raise the0 price. I enjoy working on engines, building stock cars, you name it, changing0 engines is not a big deal, actually, I probably enjoy building more than  flying. I am sure I could sell the Corvair to someone who likes to save0 money. On another note, I realize there is an anti-auto conversion0 crowd out there but I already know flying is not the safest hobby,0 my Lycoming quit in my Tiger (Look it up, N4519B), it was determined to be0 Lycomings fault and I was eventually reimbursed although it cost me  thousands to get it back in the air. I also lost two friends, guess how,0 the crankshaft broke on their 210, of course it was a certified engine but they0 are still dead. Bottom line, flying is not as safe as walking but who in0 the hell wants to walk. 

  

 Clyde Barcus

 601XL Corvair Powered

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

 From: NYTerminat(at)aol.com (NYTerminat(at)aol.com) 

  	  Quote: 	
		     To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 7:160   PM

   Subject: Re: Re: Hinge less0   ailerons

   



      You are installing a Corvair engine and are0   worried about resale for the aileron hinges????

    

    

    

   In a message dated 8/11/2006 5:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, barcusc(at)comcast.net writes:

   I have0     flown both and I really don't think there is much difference. I 

bought0     the hingeless kit but decided to convert it so I discussed this with      

Chris Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I ask Chris about using .025 angle to change0     it 

over, after review he gave it his blessing. Chris is a great guy to0     talk to, 

he understands the different preferences and that is why he0     offers both 

options. I was never concerned about the design, my reason0     was simple, I 

know the day will come when I will sell my plane and move0     on to land based 

toys. I think there is far more potential buyers that0     would be more 

comfortable with the typical hinge type versus hingeless.0     The controls are a 

	


   

    

[/quote]

John.Hines(at)craftontull
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

Dear lord, I apologize for starting this thread.  From now on I will just stick to “Polish vs. Paint”.  

   

At Corvair day in Mexico a few months ago there was a guy building a Long EZ with a funny story.  Someone in his family freaked out that he was building a “John Denver plane”.  When he decided to put a Corvair engine on it the same family member said “You mean a Ralph Nader engine?”.  He answered “Yes, I’m putting a Ralph Nader engine on a John Denver plane!”  He said he loves to tell people that just to freak them out.  It was so funny I just had to share.  

   

Ya’ll have a good weekend!  

   

John  

www.johnsplane.com   

   

   

   

   

   

   

       



John R. HinesIT ManagerJohn.Hines(at)craftontull.com Office: 479-878-2449  Mobile: 479-366-4783  Fax: 479-631-6224 www.craftontull.com901 N. 47th Street, Suite 200 ·Rogers, AR 72756Crafton, Tull & Associates, Inc. exists to anticipate and understand the needs of our clients and provide them with successful solutions.

  

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clyde Barcus

 Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 7:07 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons  

  

     

I already considered your point, lets face it, that is a valid concern. After a lot of thought I decided if it doesn't sell I will sell it without the engine or replace it with a Lycoming or Continental and raise the price. I enjoy working on engines, building stock cars, you name it, changing engines is not a big deal, actually, I probably enjoy building more than flying. I am sure I could sell the Corvair to someone who likes to save money. On another note, I realize there is an anti-auto conversion crowd out there but I already know flying is not the safest hobby, my Lycoming quit in my Tiger (Look it up, N4519B), it was determined to be Lycomings fault and I was eventually reimbursed although it cost me thousands to get it back in the air. I also lost two friends, guess how, the crankshaft broke on their 210, of course it was a certified engine but they are still dead. Bottom line, flying is not as safe as walking but who in the hell wants to walk.   

    

   

    

Clyde Barcus  

    

601XL Corvair Powered  

    

   

    

DO NOT ARCHIVE  

    

   

    

From: NYTerminat(at)aol.com (NYTerminat(at)aol.com)   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 7:16 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Hinge less ailerons  

    

   

      

[b]You are installing a Corvair engine and are worried about resale for the aileron hinges????[/b]  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

In a message dated 8/11/2006 5:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, barcusc(at)comcast.net (barcusc(at)comcast.net) writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

I have flown both and I really don't think there is much difference. I 

 bought the hingeless kit but decided to convert it so I discussed this with 

 Chris Heinz at Sun-N-Fun. I ask Chris about using .025 angle to change it 

 over, after review he gave it his blessing. Chris is a great guy to talk to, 

 he understands the different preferences and that is why he offers both 

 options. I was never concerned about the design, my reason was simple, I 

 know the day will come when I will sell my plane and move on to land based 

 toys. I think there is far more potential buyers that would be more 

 comfortable with the typical hinge type versus hingeless. The controls are a   	
  

    

   

  	
  

  



This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

pchapman(at)ionsys.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: Hinge less ailerons

I went to hinged ailerons on the 601 HDS after trying out the 

hingeless on another 601.

In cruising flight, the hingeless ones were nice enough and not a distraction.

But on approach I found it had poor control harmony. There were light 

pitch forces combined with somewhat heavy roll forces when using a 

lot of aileron, such as when dealing with turbulence on approach.

While control harmony isn't perfect with the hinged ailerons, I like 

the overall feel better.

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON

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