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Clecos, again

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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: Clecos, again

All-

     I must be losing my ability to0 communicate, because my question was "How many clecos will I actually need to0 complete my fuselage", not "How to I keep from warping the wings". I already0 learned that lesson the hard way- attached is a picture of how I prevented0 it. (118K)

     My point is, if you're following0 the manual sequentially, you leave off building the center wing with everything0 in clecos and move on to the fuse. All right, I'm going to follow the0 instructions. 

     So how many more clecos do I0 need from this point on?

     

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS 

Townville,0 Pa

  

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dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Clecos, again

I hope what I'm doing is adequate... I just used a0 smart level to make certain that the main and rear spars were the same amount0 off level before rivetting. I may be missing something but I think folks get way0 too excited about having things plumb level or at a particular angle0 relative to plumb. I look at it this way..... once it's flying, it won't  necessarilty be at any of those carefully guarded angles will it? But it damn0 well better be at the right angles relative to other parts of the0 airplane!

  

 In answer to your question..... buy a herd of0 them.... particularly the black ones. About 250 - 300 silver..... about 300 -0 350 copper...... and about 350 - 400 black. The silver and copper ones will sell0 to anyone who builds an RV and when the -12 hits the market so will the black0 ones. That's my 2 bits worth,

  

 Ed Moody II

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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Clecos, again

Ed-

     I've never used a silver cleco0 yet, and have 300 each black and gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have0 when I get to the fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use0 the silvers on the wings.

     I guess I'll have to look at the0 plans to figure out how many of the rest I'll need unless one of the old0 hands can let me know how many black and gold clecos they owned at the0 completion of their project.

     As far as alignment is0 concerned, I did everything with a 5' level and shims. Once everything was true,0 I clamped the skeleton down on the bench with the L fixtures shown0 in the first picture. I don't think it's a matter of making sure everything0 is laser true, but making sure the sucker doesn't move once you start reefing on0 it. As a matter of fact, I'm positive! Gotta remember the 601 series was  designed before anyone other than the military could afford a laser0 level.

     Someone asked how you fix a0 warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear everything apart to the point where you can0 get rid of the warp, salvage what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts0 or learn how to fabricate them yourself. This is the point where some of us0 realized they would have been just as far ahead building from scratch from the0 start. 

     The first picture shows a0 scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90% scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I0 could salvage was the sheet part of the spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second0 picture of the finished products attached. As you can see, there are a batch of0 clecos behind held hostage. The picture was taken when everything was still in0 the basement.

     Back to my original question for0 people who have completed a 601 project- how many black and gold clecos did you0 own when it was all over????

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS 

Townville, Pa

        0                0             do not0 archive

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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: Clecos, again

Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL.  However, maybe this will help.  I now have0350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16".

 

 I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage.  I think I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked.

 

 Jay in Dallas

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: Clecos, again

Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes.  I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20.  All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40.  I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later drilled out when0everything is in place.  Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet.  Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW

 

 Jay in Dallas

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: Clecos, again

I've got less than half that, and I don't see a need for any more.  Perhaps we're all using a different assembly process?  I started with the tail, and there are still 8 clecos in the tail as I write this.  Next was the fuselage, which is nearly complete.  I would say I will have maybe fifty or so still stuck in it while I work on the wings.  

    One point to note here is that there is no reason to fill every hole with a cleco, or even every third hole.  As has been mentioned before on the list, what's important is that all parts are straight and true.

    What's it take, two days shipping to get another hundred clecos?  I'd use what you've got, and when it looks like you'll be needing some more, order them.  "Do I have enough clecos" is definitely not an area I would lose any sleep over.  

    Oh, the cheapest I have found so far is Pegasus Auto  Racing  ( http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=645 ).  They run about 35 cents a piece for most flavors.



   



Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill, I am not scratch building and I am building an XL.  However, maybe this will help.  I now have 350-3/32"; 400-1/8"; 400-5/32"; and 50-3/16".

 

 I have completed tail, wings and about half of the fuselage.  I think I have enough clecoes to finish, but I don't think that I am overstocked.

 

 Jay in Dallas

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: Clecos, again

I always found drilling a pilot hole was like digging a post hole a little too small, then going back to dig it the right size.  If you're carefull with a drill, you won't be off more than .010".  If you notice that, you're FAR too much a perfectionist to be building this plane.  LOL



    Do Not Archive



Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill, You mentioned that you have never used silver clecoes.  I have found (upon advice from ZAC) that a #40 drill bit is a lot easier to control accurately than is a #30 or, especially a #20.  All the predrilled holes in the kit are #40.  I nearly always drill #40 holes and set silver clecoes to be later drilled out when everything is in place.   Sometimes I will start with a #30 if the plans call for a 1/8" rivet.  Also, if the #40 holes somehow get slightly misaligned, overdrilling with a #20 will get them aligned again without any "snowman" holes. FWIW

 

 Jay in Dallas

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: Clecos, again

This is the first true answer to the question I0 got. Figure on 150 each of A4 and A5 clecos past the recommended 300 and you0 should be OK.

        0                0             do not0 archive

     

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS 

Townville, Pa

    ---

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: Clecos, again

Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the0warped wing syndrome could be attributed to using too few clecoes. I nearly0always cleco at least every third hole and every other one if it looks like0alignment might be a problem.

 

 Jay in Dallas

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: Clecos, again

Ed/Bill,  

       I agree about the silver clecos.  I have my fuse on the gear and the fwf installed (601 HD w/ jabiru).  I'm using my first silvers on the canopy.  

            Jeff Davidson  do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk

 Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:47 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Clecos, again  

  

     

Ed-  

    

    I've never used a silver cleco yet, and have 300 each black and gold. I'll probably use the 50 silvers I have when I get to the fuse. With the skeleton nailed down, there was no need to use the silvers on the wings.  

    

    I guess I'll have to look at the plans to figure out how many of the rest I'll need unless one of the old hands can let me know how many black and gold clecos they owned at the completion of their project.  

    

    As far as alignment is concerned, I did everything with a 5' level and shims. Once everything was true, I clamped the skeleton down on the bench with the L fixtures shown in the first picture. I don't think it's a matter of making sure everything is laser true, but making sure the sucker doesn't move once you start reefing on it. As a matter of fact, I'm positive! Gotta remember the 601 series was designed before anyone other than the military could afford a laser level.  

    

    Someone asked how you fix a warp. Disgustingly simple. You tear everything apart to the point where you can get rid of the warp, salvage what you can, and either order Zenith "Oops" parts or learn how to fabricate them yourself. This is the point where some of us realized they would have been just as far ahead building from scratch from the start.   

    

    The first picture shows a scratchbuilt kit right outboard wing- 90% scratch, 10% kit. Damn near all I could salvage was the sheet part of the spar and a couple of rear ribs. Second picture of the finished products attached. As you can see, there are a batch of clecos behind held hostage. The picture was taken when everything was still in the basement.  

    

    Back to my original question for people who have completed a 601 project- how many black and gold clecos did you own when it was all over????  

    

Bill Naumuk

 40%HDS 

 Townville, Pa  

    

                                    do not archive  

    

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Clecos, again

Hi Jay,



 I have learned that one source of warping is the order in which you set rivets.  



 If you start at one end and rivet all the way down the line to the other this causes warping.  On the other hand, if you skip around and randomly set the rivets the parts stay straight.



 Go figure!



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bill, I aslo wonder if some of the warped wing syndrome could be attributed to using too few clecoes. I nearly always cleco at least every third hole and every other one if it looks like alignment might be a problem.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: Clecos, again

All-

     This is a  perfect example of the strange HDS construction manual sequencing. Nothing  is said about how to rivet the outboard wings (Which come first), but 1/3 of the  way through the manual when you get to the stab, there they are. Start in the  middle and work your way outboard, alternating between right and left of the  centerline.

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS 

Townville, Pa

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