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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: Flying without doors

I have read of doors opening in flight and on takeoff....what type of 

latches do those people have? I have the double-pin latches which 

extend about a half-inch into a steel tube which is welded to the 

fuselage tubing, both in front of and rear of, the door. I can't 

conceive of these ever opening inadvertently. Has anyone with these 

double-pin latches EVER had one open accidentally?



Lynn

Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Mike, didn't you have the nylon material attached to the t'deck and to 

the fuse member just below the flaperon control tube, which provides a 

split bearing around the flap tube? Mine is also a IV Speedster, and it 

came with the material...the nylon...and instructions for mounting it. 

I recall that I was reluctant to use it at first, but thanks to this 

group, I was convinced that it was necessary, so went ahead and 

installed it.

Lynn

Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200

On Friday, August 11, 2006, at 04:11  AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Paul sez:

> By removing it you have just eliminated the top half of the bearing 

> surfaces that hold your flaperon in place. That means your flaperon 

> is now going to be able to move up and down in flight.

 I don't know what model Kitfox you have, Paul, but that certainly 

 wasn't true of mine.  My Model IV Speedster simply had a slot cut into 

 each side of the turtle deck to allow the flaperon horn to pass 

 through.  The flaperons were completely supported by the wing brackets 

 and moved just fine with or without the turtle deck in place.

 That said, there are plenty of other reasons not to attempt flight 

 without the turtle deck in place.

 Mike G.

 N728KF

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: Flying without doors

According to "Skystar" (and I think John Mcbean that told me this):  There is no need for a bearing on the aileron horn.  The S5 (I don't know about other models) had one for some controlling agency issues in Europe.  I wanted one anyway on my 6 but was unable to fashion one easily.  So eventually I figured that if I trusted them enough to design the rest of the airplane I would trust them on this issue.  I have no inboard aileron horn support.

   

  Maxwell S6/TD/IO240



Dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:

  [quote]        Paul, 

   

  I fly with left door open lots and here is what i find ( also for the  record I have the bowed doors with lexan but no bubble windows) 

  I lose a few mph in cruise and I say alot cooler on hot days. 

  My ASI reads lower that with door shut as I have no external static port.

  My Left door at times opens on take off  and in flight but really no big deal -  ( if you have not experienced this, than you should as if is the cause of a quite a few accidents yearly. )

  I will slip with out issues with door open or shut although the door does come unlatched at times from the fully open position and will hang in wind and even close at times. I do not have gas struts.

   

  I would like to add a few points on turtle decks that I have seen.  And none have blown off but I think it  would be possible.  On some after market turtledecks  that I have seen  they have lacked an upper and lower bearing support for the flapperon horn (I hope this is the right word)  I wold think that this bearing is very critical in ensuring that the horn is supported.  With out that support  could the flapperon horn come lose from the flapperon?   If so a flutter " could result"  and could cause alot of control issues as well as wing failure.

   

  Dave

  KF IV

   

   

  [quote]  ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Mike,  this surprises me as the IV manual calls for the nylon bearings, 1/2 

mounted to the fuselage and 1/2 mounted to the turtle deck.  I thought it 

was the later models that eliminated the bearing.  I talked to a later 

builder and he was wondering how to close the slotted gap.

Lowell

do not archive

---

fordm2003(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: Flying without doors

I have this type of door setup (pin in front and rear)  My right door handle has to be fastened with velcro strap in order to keep it tight.  The pins seem to be a little worn (and/or short)  With the handle tightned down, it isn't an issue, but I have had it open in flight and on take off before.



It was a pretty exiting experience the first time it happened.



I agree that flying with doors open is a good thing to try att some point, just so that you feel better if it were to happen unexpectedly.



I might be a good idea to have a passanger handle the door operations for the first time.



- Mike

m4 speedster, winconsin



Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 



I have read of doors opening in flight and on takeoff....what

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: Flying without doors

A wonderful, if inadvertent, pun.



Lyle Persels

On 08 11, 06, at 9:13 AM, Mike Ford wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    I have had it open in flight and on take off before.



 It was a pretty exiting experience the first time it happened.



Do not archive.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Lynn:



I just went out and checked my aircraft for the use of those nylon bushings.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I can see they will prevent some metal fatigue over a period of

years.  I would say that if any one didn't install them they should consider
	


doing so.



I'm going to enclose a few pictures of the latching system on my plane.  The

doors are the standard metal frame and the main latch is similar to what you

will find in a house.  Each door also has a safety latch that I check as

part of my run up list.  Last year I went to the local scrap yard and looked

through several hundred automotive gas struts .  I came up with one that was

easy to install to the door and the support behind the seat.  I

intentionally made part of the mount that attaches to the door with worm

clamps so the strut goes over centre to help close the door.  What I've

found is that when I go to open the door in flight I actually have to push

to open it.  Before installing the strut wind would open the door at least

halfway.



Noel



 	  Quote: 	
		  0

 Mike, didn't you have the nylon material attached to the0

 t'deck and to0

 the fuse member just below the flaperon control tube, which0

 provides a0

 split bearing around the flap tube? Mine is also a IV0

 Speedster, and it0

 came with the material...the nylon...and instructions for0

 mounting it.0

 I recall that I was reluctant to use it at first, but thanks to this0

 group, I was convinced that it was necessary, so went ahead and0

 installed it.

0

 Lynn

 Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200

0

 On Friday, August 11, 2006, at 04:11  AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

0

 > 

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 >

 > Paul sez:

 >

 >> By removing it you have just eliminated the top half of0

 the bearing0

 >> surfaces that hold your flaperon in place. That means your0

 flaperon0

 >> is now going to be able to move up and down in flight.

 >

 > I don't know what model Kitfox you have, Paul, but that certainly0

 > wasn't true of mine.  My Model IV Speedster simply had a0

 slot cut into0

 > each side of the turtle deck to allow the flaperon horn to pass0

 > through.  The flaperons were completely supported by the0

 wing brackets0

 > and moved just fine with or without the turtle deck in place.

 >

 > That said, there are plenty of other reasons not to attempt flight0

 > without the turtle deck in place.

 >

 > Mike G.

 > N728KF

 >

 >

 >

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Flying without doors

I am talking about a Kitfox IV or prior  models.  

 Maybe John could comment on the flapperon horn0 nylon bushing .   Is it imperative to have ? 

 The 5 , 6  and 7 i have no idea. 

  

  

  

 Dave 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Flying without doors

I have the same mechanism that you've described here. I had the right side door pop open on me on my solo flight . It was my fault really. When the instructor got out of the airplane, he couldn't see from the outside if the steel tube had captured the pin and not being familiar with it, he couldn't really 'feel' the difference. He even asked me to verify that the door was closed properly. But, the right door pin is difficult to see from the left side and I guess I was too nervous and saw what I wanted to see. As soon as the mains lifted, the right door popped open. Thankfully, I was in a Kitfox so I still had 90% of the runway in front of me. I just pulled power, landed strait ahead and stepped out of the plane to shake brick out of my pants. Next time, I made damn sure that thing was latched properly.. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have read of doors opening in flight and on takeoff....what type of latches do those people have? I have the double-pin latches which 

extend about a half-inch into a steel tube which is welded to the 

fuselage tubing, both in front of and rear of, the door. I can't 

conceive of these ever opening inadvertently. Has anyone with these 

double-pin latches EVER had one open accidentally?

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Yep, they'll open up.  Over the years the detent will 

get worn and the handle can rotate and the door will 

pop open.  No big deal though.  Doesn't affect flight 

at all.  Just that big blast of wind and noise will 

get your attention.  Just pull the door back down and 

latch it.  Not like you're gonna fall out or 

anything!  :^)



Regards,



Ted



 I can't 

 	  Quote: 	
		  > conceive of these ever opening inadvertently. Has 

anyone with these 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > double-pin latches EVER had one open accidentally?

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: Flying without doors

After my doors popping open a couple of times I added it to my checklist.

Deke



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I have the same mechanism that you've described here. I had the right side

door pop open on me on my solo flight . It was my fault really. When the
	


instructor got out of the airplane, he couldn't see from the outside if the

steel tube had captured the pin and not being familiar with it, he couldn't

really 'feel' the difference. He even asked me to verify that the door was

closed properly. But, the right door pin is difficult to see from the left

side and I guess I was too nervous and saw what I wanted to see. As soon as

the mains lifted, the right door popped open. Thankfully, I was in a Kitfox

so I still had 90% of the runway in front of me. I just pulled power, landed

strait ahead and stepped out of the plane to shake brick out of my pants.

Next time, I made damn sure that thing was latched properly..

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 > I have read of doors opening in flight and on takeoff....what type of

latches do those people have? I have the double-pin latches which
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   > extend about a half-inch into a steel tube which is welded to the

 > fuselage tubing, both in front of and rear of, the door. I can't

 > conceive of these ever opening inadvertently. Has anyone with these

 > double-pin latches EVER had one open accidentally?



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=54147#54147

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: Flying without doors

I have a single slide at front of door frame.

Not really a big issue if door opens on takeoff or at anytime really but it 

can get your attention.

Key is fly the plane and not wory about door open or closed until you can 

give it atention.

Flying with doors open will give you less of a scare if and when it really 

happens.



Practice will not make it perfect but will help you in realtime.-

ie door opening, engine failure, stalls, spins, etc.

Dave



---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Hi Noel,

  

 That is a pretty nice Model III you have there as0 well.  Yeah, the aerocets are a great float.  Unfortunately my Model0 IV has everything but the kitchen sink in it, so the aerocet amphibs are a0 little underfloated for my needs.  If I don't try to modify mine for more0 floatation I will definitely keep you in mind should I decide to do a different0 float.  My aerocets are essentially brand new (In some regards they are0 better than new).

  

 My prop is an IVO in-flight electric0 ultralight+ (higher pitch than the standard).  Works good, but I0 should probably convert to the lower pitch blades as I can't get the rpms the0 engine needs to develop max horsepower.  I'm convinced the other blades0 will increase my climb rate while reducing my takeoff time on the0 water.  I have never been able to get to max power rpm of 5800.  So0 even though I have an inflight prop, not developing max horsepower is reducing0 my climb and my cruise.  But for now I am just going to enjoy it as  is.  Overall it works quite well just the way it is. 0 

  

 I've really been enjoying this Model IV-1200 Kitfox0 with the 912ul.  It performs very well, especially considering it is0 only an 80 hp amphibian.  It can get off the water in 8-10 seconds with0 just me and 1/2 tank of fuel (14 gallons).  And with the same load I can0 climb out at around a thousand fpm average.  Cruise speeds?  Well0 that is the really fun part.  For years all of the Rans S-7's in the area0 have been the fast floatplane to catch.  Now they have to try and catch me0 <snicker>  And I only have 80 hp vs their 100 hp.  I tested0 max power cruise the other day with me and 7/8 tank of fuel (24 gallons) in dead0 air - 116 mph one way, and 117 the other.  So this little bird cooks right0 along.  I rarely run my engine that hard, but still typically see 1000 mph+ for groundspeeds pretty much wherever I go even at less than0 5000 rpm.  And that little 80 hp 912 is a real fuel mizer. 0 Fourty hours of keeping track of my fuel shows an average of 3.3 gallons an0 hour.  Isn't that something?  This little floatplane is0 incredibly efficient.  I wonder how it might perform if I ever get the0 prop pitch figured out?  Although it's so good now I am almost afraid0 to touch anything.  

  

 Here are a few pictures in-flight showing0 my speeds.  Note:  I have been too busy flying to finish all the0 little things like instrument panel markings.... (chuckle) 

  

 Paul



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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Dave,

  

 I have no idea if the NACA vents are affecting the0 instruments.  I suspect they are not in my Fox as I have the static port on0 the rear fuselage.  If you are running static off the back of your panel,0 then yes, I believe they will affect your instrument accuracy.

  

 Paul

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

I am running the Ivo in flight0 adjustable UL prop too.  I guess I have the fine pitch blades as With the0 582 I have no problem going all the way to 6800 rpm.  Last year I had a bit0 of a problem with my tach.  On the last flight the rpm cranked up to 78000 rpm and the plane literally rocketed off the water.  I was well over 2500 agl before I knew what was happening.  I then tried to pull the throttle0 back slowly after all there are better ways of going than to hit a runway on0 floats tail first!..  When I got home I realized that it was possible to0 churn 7800 but not get any power out of it.  I immediately bought and0 installed a Tiny Tach.  It turns out that at 7800 on the original 'Fox tach0 the Tiny Tach was only registering 6400.

  

 Due to a raft of federal red0 tape I haven't gotten the hours of flying this summer that I'd planned on0 getting.  I'm certainly looking forward to a lot more air time in the near0 future.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

To assure that you have a good static port location watch your altimeter0 during takeoff, rotation, and lift off. if it fluctuates or shows anything but0 field elevation it is in error.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Flying without doors

Lynn asks:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, didn't you have the nylon material attached to the t'deck and 

to the fuse member just below the flaperon control tube, which 

provides a split bearing around the flap tube?


	


No.  My turtledeck simply had a slot cut into it for the flaperon 

horn to pass through.  The inboard flaperon hinge held the bearing 

surface that the horn swiveled within (see attached).



Mike G.

N728KF

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janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

In my mind a/c doors should have one easy action to open....in case of fire. One has to think of the unfamiliar passenger in the case of an emergency. Never matters to me much if a door comes open by mistake and if in the event of an accident it springs then all the better.

  	  Quote: 	

From:  "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: Re: Flying without doors

Date:  Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:03:00 -0230

Lynn:

I just went out and checked my aircraft for the use of those nylon bushings.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I can see they will prevent some metal fatigue over a period of

years.  I would say that if any one didn't install them they should consider

doing so.

I'm going to enclose a few pictures of the latching system on my plane.  The

doors are the standard metal frame and the main latch is similar to what you

will find in a house.  Each door also has a safety latch that I check as

part of my run up  list.  Last year I went to the local scrap yard and looked

through several hundred automotive gas struts .  I came up with one that was

easy to install to the door and the support behind the seat.  I

intentionally made part of the mount that attaches to the door with worm

clamps so the strut goes over centre to help close the door.  What I've

found is that when I go to open the door in flight I actually have to push

to open it.  Before installing the strut wind would open the door at least

halfway.

Noel

 	  Quote: 	

 Mike, didn't you have the nylon material attached to the

 t'deck and to

 the fuse member just below the flaperon control tube, which

 provides a

 split bearing around the flap tube? Mine is also a IV

 Speedster, and it

 came with the  material...the nylon...and instructions for

 mounting it.

 I recall that I was reluctant to use it at first, but thanks to this

 group, I was convinced that it was necessary, so went ahead and

 installed it.

 Lynn

 Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200

 On Friday, August 11, 2006, at 04:11  AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 >

 > Paul sez:

 >

 >> By removing it you have just eliminated the top half of

 the bearing

 >> surfaces that hold your flaperon in place. That means your

 flaperon

 >> is now going to be able to move up and down in flight.

 >

 > I don't know what model Kitfox you have, Paul, but that certainly

 >  wasn't true of mine.  My Model IV Speedster simply had a

 slot cut into

 > each side of the turtle deck to allow the flaperon horn to pass

 > through.  The flaperons were completely supported by the

 wing brackets

 > and moved just fine with or without the turtle deck in place.

 >

 > That said, there are plenty of other reasons not to attempt flight

 > without the turtle deck in place.

 >

 > Mike G.

 > N728KF

 >

 >

 >

 ====================================

 ====================================

 ====================================

 ====================================

 ====================================

 ====================================

<< Safetylatch2.jpg >> 

<< Mainlatch.jpg >> 

<< DoorStrut.jpg >> 

Find the coolest online games at  XtraMSN Games

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Flying without doors

Take it from me, it's the same al over the globe. The world population is made up of 50% pick swingers and the other 1/2 ticket clickers to click the pick swingers tickets!!



 [quote]  From: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps(at)tznet.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Flying without doors

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:07:45 -0500



     Dave,

  

 I have no idea if the NACA vents are affecting the instruments.  I suspect they are not in my Fox as I have the static port on the rear fuselage.  If you are running static off the back of your panel, then yes, I believe they will affect your instrument accuracy.

  

 Paul

  

 [quote] ---

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