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Some prop questions

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wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Some prop questions

All,  

Mr. Alexander and I both have FS II's both with 503 DCDI, the planes are  "almost" exactly alike except that (1)George's plane carries 5gal. fuel and  mine, 10gal. (2).. George is a bigger and heavier pilot than I am and (3) he has  a three blade Warp Drive and I have a three blade IVO prop.  

On any given day under any given conditions, I can't for the life of me keep  up with him unless I run way over normal cruise rpm (way over).  

I haven't checked my prop pitch (going to though) but I plane performs great  except during cruise (trying to catch George).  

I personally think that he's running a turbo boost system but I can't prove  anything.   

Anyway, I am giving serious thought to changing to a Warp Drive prop but in  light of the recent postings, I am wondering if I should go two blade or stick  with three blades.   

What do you "experienced" gentleman  think?

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: Some prop questions

| What do you "experienced" gentleman think?

|



Chris:



Probably be a good idea to tune the prop to engine and airplane first.



Prop pitch is correct when the tach will bump the red line, wide open 

throttle, straight and level flight.  For a Rotax two stroke, that 

would be 6,500 rpm, not 6,800 rpm.  6,500 rpm is maximum continuous 

rpm.



This procedure will also give you your correct static rpm, used to 

check the health of the engine during run up and pre-take off 

procedures.



For 912's it would be 5,500 rpm, max continuous rpm.



This is the same way one props a boat to get optimum all around 

performance.



Propping an airplane this way will give you best climb and cruise 

performance.



A good person to talk to about Warp Drive Props is Daryl, chief honcho 

of the company.  He has been at this job for many years and is very 

knowledgeable on the subject.  His telephone number is:



1-800-833-9357



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: Some prop questions

John makes a good point that the prop needs to be tuned to the engine and 

airplane but you first need to get a prop that matches your engine and 

airplane. Refer to the factory recommendations for best prop because there 

is kind of a black science to the prop selection. Most manufactures 

experiment with a bunch of props before they get the best one. But when you 

try nonstandard prop you will be the test pilot again. Generally speaking 

the larger the diameter of the prop the more thrust you get up to the point 

where the tips get close to supersonic. The down side is that the effective 

speed range of the prop gets more narrow as the prop gets longer and closer 

to the point were there is too much prop for the engine power. This is the 

limit of my experience. Also three bladed props seem to run smoother on 

Kolbs than two bladed props. I'm told that a properly selected two bladed 

prop will produce more thrust than a three bladed prop.



I don't know the specifics but Steve Bennet at Great Plains Aircraft tested 

(hopefully equal) Warp, Ivo, and PowerFin props and found that PowerFin 

props produced the most thrust and were the lightest. Warp Drive produced a 

bit less thrust and was the heaviest by quite a bit. Ivo produced the least 

thrust and was in between the weight of the others.



My $.02 worth



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

Serial # M3-174 Root tube #1044

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: Some prop questions

Check John H's post on propping to hit 6,500 rpm, do that, and also pull 

one blade out of your Ivo. You will need some cheap spacer blocks to do 

it right, but try using it as a two-blade first. You might be pleasantly 

surprised. And if not, it didn't cost you much.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Chris Mallory wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 All,



 Mr. Alexander and I both have FS II's both with 503 DCDI, the planes 

 are "almost" exactly alike except that (1)George's plane carries 5gal. 

 fuel and mine, 10gal. (2).. George is a bigger and heavier pilot than 

 I am and (3) he has a three blade Warp Drive and I have a three blade 

 IVO prop.



 On any given day under any given conditions, I can't for the life of 

 me keep up with him unless I run way over normal cruise rpm (way over).



 I haven't checked my prop pitch (going to though) but I plane performs 

 great except during cruise (trying to catch George).



 I personally think that he's running a turbo boost system but I can't 

 prove anything.



 Anyway, I am giving serious thought to changing to a Warp Drive prop 

 but in light of the recent postings, I am wondering if I should go two 

 blade or stick with three blades.



 What do you "experienced" gentleman think?



 *

 *

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Some prop questions

Kolbers,



Another propeller consideration is it's moment of inertia.  This is a 

measure of propellers flywheel effect.  Considering all other things equal, 

the heavier and higher moment of inertia propeller will be more difficult to 

accelerate or decelerate and to absorb engine power impulses.  This in turn 

causes more work for the reduction unit, engine mounts and the fuselage in 

that they have to absorb more 

vibration.



For similar power settings, the lightest and lowest moment of inertia 

propeller should feed the least vibration back to the cage.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Some prop questions

All:

  

 So rare that one has an opportunity to correct Mr.  Mallory........ 

  

 He states......"(3) he has a three  blade Warp Drive"

  

 He should have stated..... "(3) he has  a three blade Power Fin"

  

 I would have been harsher in my correction if Chris had not  been so kind when he said  ".....and heavier...."  That's being  kind.  Coulda said "fat"  



 Regards,

  

 George "turbo boost" Alexander

 http://gtalexander.home.att.net

  

  



   From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris  Mallory

Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:33 AM

To: Kolb  List

Subject: Some prop questions

 

  

All,  

Mr. Alexander and I both have FS II's both with 503 DCDI, the planes are  "almost" exactly alike except that (1)George's plane carries 5gal. fuel and  mine, 10gal. (2).. George is a bigger and heavier pilot than I am and (3) he has  a three blade Warp Drive and I have a three blade IVO prop.  

On any given day under any given conditions, I can't for the life of me keep  up with him unless I run way over normal cruise rpm (way over).  

I haven't checked my prop pitch (going to though) but I plane performs great  except during cruise (trying to catch George).  

I personally think that he's running a turbo boost system but I can't prove  anything.   

Anyway, I am giving serious thought to changing to a Warp Drive prop but in  light of the recent postings, I am wondering if I should go two blade or stick  with three blades.   

What do you "experienced" gentleman think?

[quote]



s.com/Navigator?Kolb-List



[b]

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: Some prop questions

|  Considering all other things equal,

| the heavier and higher moment of inertia propeller will be more 

difficult to

| accelerate or decelerate and to absorb engine power impulses.  This 

in turn

| causes more work for the reduction unit, engine mounts and the 

fuselage in

| that they have to absorb more

| vibration.

|

| For similar power settings, the lightest and lowest moment of 

inertia

| propeller should feed the least vibration back to the cage.

|

| Jack B. Hart FF004

Jack:



The 912 series engines are not experiencing any problems with the 

heavier 3 blade Warp Drive Props, especially those equipped with the 

slip clutch.  At 1,200 hours, all flown with the 70 and 72 inch Warp, 

my gear box torsional vibration dampner showed not wear.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Some prop questions

Jack is absolutely correct here. The Warp drive is a great prop, but it is heavy (lots of rotational inertia). If you are running a "B" box it is way too heavy. If you run a "C", or "E"  box, which has twice the allowable limit as the "B", you are hitting the top of the limit at best. These limit numbers come right from the Rotax manual for the gear box. 



Rick



On 8/27/06, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



Kolbers,



Another propeller consideration is it's moment of inertia.  This is a 

measure of propellers flywheel effect.  Considering all other things equal,

the heavier and higher moment of inertia propeller will be more difficult to

accelerate or decelerate and to absorb engine power impulses.  This in turn 

causes more work for the reduction unit, engine mounts and the fuselage in

that they have to absorb more

vibration.



For similar power settings, the lightest and lowest moment of inertia

propeller should feed the least vibration back to the cage. 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Some prop questions

John,

Thanks for the information and the number, I'll use it.



Chris Mallory  do not archive

---

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

George,

 I stand corrected Sir ............... but I'm still  suspicious of the turbo boost 

  

 Chris 

  

  do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

Hey Geo,

I just upped my starvation insurance as I got older.



On Aug 27, 2006, at 3:02 PM, George T. Alexander, Jr. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would have been harsher in my correction if Chris had not been so  

 kind when he said  ".....and heavier...."  That's being kind.   

 Coulda said "fat"



 Regards,



 George "turbo boost" Alexander

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

In a message dated 8/27/2006 11:10:02 A.M. Central Standard Time,  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I    don't know the specifics but Steve Bennet at Great Plains Aircraft tested    

(hopefully equal) Warp, Ivo, and PowerFin props and found that PowerFin    

props produced the most thrust and were the lightest. Warp Drive produced    a 

bit less thrust and was the heaviest by quite a bit. Ivo produced the    least 

thrust and was in between the weight of the others.



My $.02    worth



Rick Neilsen

	


 

           Did they consider  smoothness quiteness or durability?

  

             Ed  Diebel

  [quote][b]

WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

This is very interesting, when Dave and I flew our  FireStars together, all things being equal except for the Power Fin  two blade prop on his FireStar and the IVO three blade prop on mine.  Dave  would fly circles around me. It is your choice so choose what is right for  you. I'm satisfied with the IVO but I wish I would have bought a three  blade Power Fin. The IVO had problems with slinging the leading edge  aluminum tape. IVO said they got a bad batch of aluminum tape, I now  use transparent tape.

 

  

 Regards,

 Will Uribe

 FireStar II N4GU

 El Paso, TX

 http://home.elp.rr.com/airplane/oregon.htm

 do not archive

  

 In a message dated 8/27/2006 8:34:19 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

All,    

Mr. Alexander and I both have FS II's both with 503 DCDI, the planes are    "almost" exactly alike except that (1)George's plane carries 5gal. fuel and    mine, 10gal. (2).. George is a bigger and heavier pilot than I am and (3) he    has a three blade Warp Drive and I have a three blade IVO prop.    

On any given day under any given conditions, I can't for the life of me    keep up with him unless I run way over normal cruise rpm (way    over).       

I haven't checked my prop pitch (going to though) but I plane performs    great except during cruise (trying to catch George).    

I personally think that he's running a turbo boost system but I can't prove    anything.       

Anyway, I am giving serious thought to changing to a Warp Drive prop but in    light of the recent postings, I am wondering if I should go two blade or stick    with three blades.       

What do you "experienced" gentleman  think?

	


  [quote][b]

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

George,

 That makes me feel a whole lot better about my  Powerfin prop.

 Denny

 PS: Which model Powerfin do you have?

 [quote]   ---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: Some prop questions

In a message dated 8/27/2006 7:21:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  WillUribe(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm    satisfied with the IVO but I wish I would have bought a three blade Power    Fin. The IVO had problems with slinging the leading edge aluminum    tape. IVO said they got a bad batch of aluminum tape, I now    use transparent tape. 	


 

 Good point about the tape Will. When I started flying FF 007 it had the IVO  2 blade installed.

 The tape would constantly try and peel off. Granted, I was throwing a lot  of water through it. I ordered 2 blade Warp and a 3 blade Kiev at the same time.  The Kiev arrived first and I have never taken it off the plane. I do not think  that there was much performance difference between the IVO and the Kiev. Keep in  mind that the IVO is 2 and the Kiev is 3. Kiev only makes a 3 blade  configuration. I suspect that a 2 blade Kiev would out perform the IVO. However,  the Kiev was much smoother and quieter than the IVO. Some day I will get around  and try the Warp. I suspect that it will out perform both the IVO and  Kiev.

  

 steve

  [quote][b]

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: Some prop questions

From: N27SB(at)aol.com

Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:20:48 EDT

<snip>

Good point about the tape Will. When I started flying FF 007 it had the IVO 2 blade installed.

The tape would constantly try and peel off. Granted, I was throwing a lot of water through it. I ordered 2 blade Warp and a 3 blade Kiev at the same time. The Kiev arrived first and I have never taken it off the plane. I do not think that there was much performance difference between the IVO and the Kiev. Keep in mind that the IVO is 2 and the Kiev is 3. Kiev only makes a 3 blade configuration. I suspect that a 2 blade Kiev would out perform the IVO. However, the Kiev was much smoother and quieter than the IVO. Some day I will get around and try the Warp. I suspect that it will out perform both the IVO and Kiev.

</snip>  

Any three blade propeller will be quieter than its corresponding two blade when they are both setup to absorb the same amount of power.  The three blade will be set at lower pitch which translates into lower noise.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

do not archive

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Some prop questions

In a message dated 8/28/2006 11:06:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Any three blade propeller will be quieter than its corresponding two blade when they are both setup to absorb the same amount of power.  The three blade will be set at lower pitch which translates into lower noise.

 

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 	


 

 Makes sense Jack, If Kiev ever makes a 2 blade hub, I will switch. I suspect that a 2 blade Kiev will be quieter than an IVO due to the blade design. I think that the IVO does a good job and it is the easiest to adjust but it is not suitable for water flying. 

 

 steve  [quote][b]

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

Denny:

  

 Sorry for the delay in responding.  Spent the day  trying to secure my FS in its trailer in case Ernesto decides to visit us  at/near Airport Manatee.

  

 The setup on my FS II is a 3 blade Power Fin, Model  F;  C gearbox (3.47 ratio) being driven by the R503 DCDI/Dual  Carb. 

  

 Great combination....  along with a turbo booster.  ;>)

  

 George

 http://gtalexander.home.att.net

 



   From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denny  Rowe

Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:23 PM

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Some prop  questions

 

 George,

 That makes me feel a whole lot better about my  Powerfin prop.

 Denny

 PS: Which model Powerfin do you have?

 [quote]   ---

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

Thanks George,

 I also have the F model and have heard that it is  the best you can do on the 503 with the 3.47 ratio.  

 My 2SI only has a 2.65 gear set, I would love to  see what it would do with a C gearbox and the 3.47 ratio but I don't have the  time to even fly right now, let alone retrofit a new gearbox.

 Good luck with the Hurricane.

  

 Denny

 [quote]   ---

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: Some prop questions

What I am learning to like with my Ivo prop is the ability to change the

pitch in flight.  It seems that I can get more use of the broad power

band of the G10 Suzuki engine.  Even though I use 14 degrees of pitch

for all modes of flight at density altitudes of 5,500 up to 10,000 msl

which give me good climb and cruise, I like having the extra power for

climb when I go to 11 degrees of pitch.  That will let the engine rev at

6,000 rpms and almost doubles my climb rate.  For some reason, I picked

up thrust when I cut the prop down from 72 inch dia to 70 inch dia.

Maybe I should cut off some more, but it is so powerful now and smooth,

I hate to take a chance in getting the blades too short.  I now have

over 20 hrs of flight time on my Mk III Classic and finally got it to

fly hands off at a 70 mph cruise.  With a little down left elevator, a

little lowering of the left flap, a fair amount of trim tab for right

rudder and some torque from the engine, it is just enough to balance my

over weight condition in the left seat.  It might be a thrill to fly it

from the right seat.    Vic in Sacramento

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