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Rudder twitchy's

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grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

Hi Bill,



I fly a 601HDS with CAM100 (Honda conversion).  I noticed the yaw in the movie clip too.  I must say I've never noticed it while flying my aircraft, but then I wasn't looking for it.   (I'd say it is probably there alright, waiting to be 'outed' when I too mount a camera some day ha ha.! ) 



The airplane is easy to keep straight during takeoff and landing roll.  But there is a very noticeable yaw reaction from thrust changes.  When I pay close attention to the ball on the T&B, I'm surprised to see how much rudder "trim" is required, from a lot of left pedal during full power ops (climb out), to a significant amount of right pedal during glides/approaches.  (NOTE* You may need to reverse those left/right indications for your engine - mine rotates counterclockwise as viewed from the cockpit  ...



In summary, due to the short coupling of the airplane, definite rudder inputs are required to counteract engine/prop tourque/effect etc...  Meanwhile, when rolling into turns there is mild adverse yaw requiring only small rudder pressure.



My conclusion about the 601 is that it is easy to fly, but challenging to fly well, keeping all these various 'twitchys' to a minumum.



fwiw,

Grant Corriveau

Nanaimo, B.C.

C-GHTF



=================

On 7-Sep-06, at 11:58 PM, Zenith-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net (naumuk(at)alltel.net)> 

Subject: Re: Youtube video of Zodiac at Brian Ranch airport 



 

Rick- 

    Rudder input looked pretty twitchy. Is it that sensitive, or was  

that PIO? Gotta remember, I'm a C-172 driver. 

Bill Naumuk 

HDS Fuselage 

Townville, Pa 	




  	  Quote: 	
		  	
-------------------------------

grant.corriveau(at)telus.net (grant.corriveau(at)telus.net)

---------------------------------------

The Wings Stayed On!

http://aluwings.blogspirit.com

---------------------------------------

 



 [quote][b]

mfothergill(at)sympatico.
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

HI;

My HDS with a 912S requires a significant amount of right rudder on 

take-off but very little anytime after that.

Mike

CH-601HDS 1400+ hours

Grant Corriveau wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Bill,

 I fly a 601HDS with CAM100 (Honda conversion).  I noticed the yaw in the 

 movie clip too.  I must say I've never noticed it while flying my 

 aircraft, but then I wasn't looking for it.   (I'd say it is probably 

 there alright, waiting to be 'outed' when I too mount a camera some day 

 ha ha.! ) 

 The airplane is easy to keep straight during takeoff and landing roll.  

 But there is a very noticeable yaw reaction from thrust changes.  When I 

 pay close attention to the ball on the T&B, I'm surprised to see how 

 much rudder "trim" is required, from a lot of left pedal during full 

 power ops (climb out), to a significant amount of right pedal during 

 glides/approaches.  (NOTE* You may need to reverse those left/right 

 indications for your engine - mine rotates counterclockwise as viewed 

 from the cockpit  ...

 In summary, due to the short coupling of the airplane, definite rudder 

 inputs are required to counteract engine/prop tourque/effect etc...  

 Meanwhile, when rolling into turns there is mild adverse yaw requiring 

 only small rudder pressure.

 My conclusion about the 601 is that it is easy to fly, but challenging 

 to fly well, keeping all these various 'twitchys' to a minumum.

 fwiw,

 Grant Corriveau

 Nanaimo, B.C.

 C-GHTF

 =================

 On 7-Sep-06, at 11:58 PM, Zenith-List Digest Server wrote:

> From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net <mailto:naumuk(at)alltel.net>>

>

> Subject: Re: Youtube video of Zodiac at Brian Ranch airport

> Rick-

>

>     Rudder input looked pretty twitchy. Is it that sensitive, or was 

>

> that PIO? Gotta remember, I'm a C-172 driver.

>

> Bill Naumuk

>

> HDS Fuselage

>

> Townville, Pa

>

 -------------------------------

 grant.corriveau(at)telus.net <mailto:grant.corriveau(at)telus.net>

 ---------------------------------------

 The Wings Stayed On!

 http://aluwings.blogspirit.com

 ---------------------------------------

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

I haven't seen any reference to a "rudder trim tab"  on the forum. Anyone want to weigh in?

   

  Terry Turnquist

  601 XL Plans 

  St. Peters, MO

   

  do not archive



Grant Corriveau <grant.corriveau(at)telus.net> wrote:

  [quote]  Hi Bill,

  

  I fly a 601HDS with CAM100 (Honda conversion).  I noticed the yaw in the movie clip too.  I must say I've never noticed it while flying my aircraft, but then I wasn't looking for it.   (I'd say it is probably there alright, waiting to be 'outed' when I too mount a camera some day ha ha.! ) 

  

  The airplane is easy to keep straight during takeoff and landing roll.  But there is a very  noticeable yaw reaction from thrust changes.  When I pay close attention to the ball on the T&B, I'm surprised to see how much rudder "trim" is required, from a lot of left pedal during full power ops ......

   

  

  fwiw,

  Grant Corriveau

  Nanaimo, B.C.

  C-GHTF

  

=================

    On 7-Sep-06, at 11:58 PM, Zenith-List Digest Server wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk(at)alltel.net (naumuk(at)alltel.net)>

  Subject: Re: Youtube video of Zodiac at Brian Ranch airport

  



  Rick-

      Rudder input looked pretty twitchy. Is it that sensitive, or was 

  that PIO? Gotta remember, I'm a C-172 driver.

  Bill Naumuk

  HDS Fuselage

  Townville, Pa

	




     	  Quote: 	
		  	
  -------------------------------

  grant.corriveau(at)telus.net (grant.corriveau(at)telus.net)

  ---------------------------------------

  The Wings Stayed On!

  http://aluwings.blogspirit.com

  ---------------------------------------

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

Grant,

  

 In my 701, I have taken videos out the front as  well.  On approach, I was surprised to see how much the nose moved back and  forth in the video.  I don't notice this myself during  approach.  If the video camera is zoomed in a bit, I  think it might exaggerate the motion. 

  

 I flew today with the camera aimed at the  instrument panel.  In cruise the turn and bank was fairly calm.  But  on approach it was active, I think we make corrections as needed without  realizing it.  You can sure tell when you are not coordinated.  I only  need rudder on take off.  The right thrust takes care of cruise and no  power is ok for approach.  I need a bit more down thrust as the elevator  trim changes a lot from cruise to approach.

  

 Chuck D.

 N701TX

 Jabiru 2200

 [quote]   ---

randy(at)n344rb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

I thought of this early in the game, and since I'm  scratch building I could incorporate it fairly easily...  I spoke to  several A&P friends of mine and they said that rudder trim was installed on  planes with larger engines, for the reason, I'm assuming P-Factor, and they went  on to say that with the size engine and plane I was building that they didn't  think rudder trim would be necessary...  They said that maybe a bendable  tab on the rudder after I was flying, but they'd steer away from an actual  trim...

  

 Thanks,

  

 Randy

 XL Wings - Plans Only

 Do Not Archive

  

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

All-

     I don't think rudder trim is the  solution, either. It would seem from a geometrical perspective that an increase  in the width of the rudder bellcrank would calm things down. By width, I  mean the distance between the control cable attachment  (Unless, of course,  there are other aerodynamic factors at work.) You'd pay a minute penalty in drag  from the additional metal hanging in the wind, but is it worth it?

     While it's  obviously evident in the video, it's not evident to people closer to the  CG. I was in the back seat of an A-36 Bonanza and the Dutch Roll was so bad  you wanted to puke. 2'

 each way on each oscillation. The guys up front  didn't beleive me until they sat in the back.

     Dutch roll can't improve  performance and fuel consumption. Unfortunately, changing the geometry  of a bellcrank is a major (And to be avoided) airframe modification.  

     I don't know who else to  contact. Mark (Zodie)- can you kick this question upstairs?  Thanks.  

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

I honestly believe that no change is necessary, in flight the rudder acts as it should and as noted your turn and bank hardly move with only a small pressure to help in your coordinated turns. On approach we all (well not all but I’m just as guilty) seem to do the two step all over the rudder pedals, now this is normal and with such a big rudder we tend to go back and forth just for something to do. But when it comes to cross wind landings we all know that the Zodiac and 701 handle far far more then most others planes of the same size, this is also due to the rudder’s ability, it has a lot to do without having a vertical stabilizer. Of which I believe is a golden point of our planes. So for something that cannot be perceived in the last couple minutes of flight by the pilot and passenger, playing with the geometry of the rudder is unwarranted. Simply put,  to gain so little on a small part of our flight we would sacrifice to much on a large part of our adventure and in the safety of our chosen bird. Nevertheless, to each their own, when I fly with seasoned 601 owners I don’t notice and tail wag but new owners are a different story.  

     

Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario  

Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH801 C-FHUC  

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com  

  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill  Naumuk

 Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:35 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Rudder twitchy's  

     

All-  

    

    I don't think rudder trim is the solution, either. It would seem from a geometrical perspective that an increase in the width of the rudder bellcrank would calm things down. By width, I mean the distance between the control cable attachment  (Unless, of course, there are other aerodynamic factors at work.) You'd pay a minute penalty in drag from the additional metal hanging in the wind, but is it worth it?  

    

    While it's obviously evident in the video, it's not evident to people closer to the CG. I was in the back seat of an A-36 Bonanza and the Dutch Roll was so bad you wanted to puke. 2'  

    

each way on each oscillation. The guys up front didn't beleive me until they sat in the back.  

    

    Dutch roll can't improve performance and fuel consumption. Unfortunately, changing the geometry of a bellcrank is a major (And to be avoided) airframe modification.   

    

    I don't know who else to contact. Mark (Zodie)- can you kick this question upstairs? Thanks.    

    

Bill Naumuk

 HDS Fuselage

 Townville, Pa  

  [quote]    

---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

Thanks, Mark, for your quick  response. If the movement doesn't occur in cruise flight as it did in the A36 I  spoke of, no big deal. A definite PIA if it does. Maybe some cruise photos could  be taken with, say, a road for reference.

     The movement has probably  been going on since day 1. No one could see it until digital  camcorders came around.     

     Once again, no big  deal, but an opportunity for improvement.  

 Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

stephen(at)crichards.flye
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

Hi list 

 I agree with Grants Comments

  

 I have been doing a large number of Tuch & Go's  to get the landings correct in Rays  601hd Continental 0 200 and  have not noticed a problem with the  rudder. I just need to get the  speed & flare correct for a good landing as the pich is very  sensitive.

  We did however have to fit a fixed rudder  trim tab which now allows hands off at cruse.

 [quote]   ---

grant.corriveau(at)TELUS.
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

: "Zodie Rocket" <zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca>

Subject: RE: Rudder twitchy's

-----------------

I honestly believe that no change is necessary,

-----------------



I agree completely with Mark.  Don't waste time trying to 'improve'  

the handling by messing with the design.  It handles like a dream if  

you want a quick, sporty little airplane that is still easy to fly.   

I call it a Mazda Miata with wings 'cause that's how it seems to  

handle to me.  Sporty.



Rudder trim is unnecessary.  The plane is designed to be neutral in  

cruise (the engine mount is offset to counter the Tourque/P effects)  

and this works nicely.



  ( -- I'm smiling, so please read this in a light-hearted tone.)

Trim tab systems are intended to counter-act imbalances in Long Term  

stable conditions.  For shorter-term, dynamically changing  

conditions, (i.e. climbs, power changes, speed changes, altitude  

changes, rolling into/outof banks; etc, etc.)  we use hands and feet  

to control rudder, ailerons and elevators.  It's called 'aircraft  

handling' and forms just part of the skills set known as "piloting"  

<<grin>>



Build the plane and go fly!

All the best,

Grant Corriveau

GHTF

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Rudder twitchy's

All-

    As I said before, I don't think this is a job for the builder. I got 

thinking about all the possible causes and realized it's way out of my 

league. Also, if Beech can live with a nasty Dutch Roll in their A36 

(Although I'm sure they don't advertise it) I guess we can live with a much 

less severe case in the Zenith.

    Still, an opportunity for improvement.

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

---

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