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Issues with Dual Brakes

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Nick(at)Scholtes1.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

KitFoxers,



I've been looking to buy a KitFox for a while now, and am in the process 

of educating myself and also starting to make appointments to look at 

airplanes. 



I want the airplane to have brakes on both sides, as I plan to have some 

students fly left seat in the airplane.  I've talked to several folks 

who are selling  their KitFoxes, and a common comment is, "I originally 

had brakes on both sides, but I removed them from the right side because 

there was a problem with them."



Could someone educate me on what the problem is, and more specifically, 

is there a solution to it? 



If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I 

wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information do 

I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?  Where 

would I get the parts, and approximately how much would everything cost?



Any advice would be appreciated.



Best Regards,



Nick Scholtes

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

On Sep 26, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I 

 wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information 

 do I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?


	


Without being able to answer your question, Nick, here are my thoughts 

about dual brakes.

My model 3 has brakes only on the left side. I started flying it, first 

with my instructor. I sat on the left seat. Then my son started with 

the instructor. He sat on the left seat. Then I went flying with my 

son. He sits on the left seat. In the air, we fly on turns. It is very 

pleasant.

But it is always the left-seater who lands the plane. I tried once to 

land from the right-hand seat and ... it was scary! Then my son and I  

have a rule: While I fly much more than him, if anything happens in 

form of an emergency, the left-seater is the PIC and the right-seater 

is only doing what he is instructed to. It's a question of safety, no 

time to fight about who does what.

The bottom line? I don't need brakes on the right hand seat since I 

don't know what it will be used for. Are you sure you want to add the 

extra weight and complication?



cheers,

Michel

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

Nick-



I haven't found the brakes to be any problem at all, through the 20-odd 

hours of flying dual with my instructor, then the 80-odd hours of solo 

since then. Of course, solo doesn't allow for the right-side brakes to 

get the used much. I am flying a model IV, with Matco calipers and 

Cleveland master cylinders. My brakes will even hold the plane at 

full-throttle run-up during a short-field takeoff, but then I'm running 

an 85-hp Jabiru with a cruise prop. : )

So you gotta ask yourself....is is the brakes REALLY working, or is it 

that Jabiru/prop combo NOT working?



Lynn

On Tuesday, September 26, 2006, at 02:22  PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 KitFoxers,



 I've been looking to buy a KitFox for a while now, and am in the 

 process of educating myself and also starting to make appointments to 

 look at airplanes.

 I want the airplane to have brakes on both sides, as I plan to have 

 some students fly left seat in the airplane.  I've talked to several 

 folks who are selling  their KitFoxes, and a common comment is, "I 

 originally had brakes on both sides, but I removed them from the right 

 side because there was a problem with them."



 Could someone educate me on what the problem is, and more 

 specifically, is there a solution to it?

 If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I 

 wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information 

 do I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?  Where 

 would I get the parts, and approximately how much would everything 

 cost?



 Any advice would be appreciated.



 Best Regards,



 Nick Scholtes

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dgolden(at)golden-consult
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Nick-

 

 I haven't found the brakes to be any problem at all, through the 20-odd

 hours of flying dual with my instructor, then the 80-odd hours of solo

 since then. Of course, solo doesn't allow for the right-side brakes to

 get the used much. I am flying a model IV, with Matco calipers and

 Cleveland master cylinders. My brakes will even hold the plane at

 full-throttle run-up during a short-field takeoff, but then I'm running

 an 85-hp Jabiru with a cruise prop. : )

 So you gotta ask yourself....is is the brakes REALLY working, or is it

 that Jabiru/prop combo NOT working?

 

 Lynn

 On Tuesday, September 26, 2006, at 02:22  PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:


	


There was a problem with the Matco brake masters if BOTH right and left

pilot brakes were applied at the same time. This could result in a

complete lockup of the brakes. There was a simple fix made available by

Matco and Skystar. This was brought up on this list in the last week or

so. Check: http://www.carttonic.com/files/file_download.php?fi_id=38522



Regards,



Dennis



 	  Quote: 	
		  > 

>

> KitFoxers,

>

> I've been looking to buy a KitFox for a while now, and am in the

> process of educating myself and also starting to make appointments to

> look at airplanes.

> I want the airplane to have brakes on both sides, as I plan to have

> some students fly left seat in the airplane.  I've talked to several

> folks who are selling  their KitFoxes, and a common comment is, "I

> originally had brakes on both sides, but I removed them from the right

> side because there was a problem with them."

>

> Could someone educate me on what the problem is, and more

> specifically, is there a solution to it?

> If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I

> wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information

> do I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?  Where

> would I get the parts, and approximately how much would everything cost?

>

> Any advice would be appreciated.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Nick Scholtes


	


-- 

Dennis Golden

Golden Consulting Services, Inc.

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ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

Nick,



A couple ideas to think about, from a guy who bought (parts of) a model 7 

Trigear and ordered the dual brakes.



1) There is a difference between the trigrear and the tailwheel version - 

Tailwheel, you can steer on the ground from the right seat with the linkage 

to the tailwheel even without brakes - Trigear - no such thing - all you have 

on the ground with the trigrear for directional control (since it is not 

connected to the pedals) is the throttle and rudder - you can't steer with 

brakes you don't have on the trigear from the right seat. If you get the 

tailwheel - you definily have an option from the right seat without brakes.



2) How much do you trust students?  Maybe a point to consider together with 

item 1 above and some of those cluttered, busy and congested ramps we 

sometimes get dragged into against our will. Even a composite propeller will 

chew through aluminum and other stuff that some airplanes and gas pumps are 

made of.



3) Familiar with the concept? - have something I didn't need vs need something 

I don't have (like carb heat, brakes, etc...) Maybe I am just paranoid...I 

don't know.



Just a couple thoughts; however, it is pretty clear also that people fly 

kitfoxes in all kinds of configurations.... successfully



Also - a Kitfox should make a pretty good trainer - light enough on the 

controls and you need to use the rudder - two things that really help a a new 

person learn to feel what they are doing with the airplane.



FYI - the first and only airplane I flew where the instructor was denied the 

benefit of brakes with me in the left seat was a Piper Arrow -  that seemed 

to touchdown at a somewhat higher speed than a kitfox, but it did have the 

benefit of an interconnect with the front training wheel.



Sincerely,



Dave S

St Paul, MN

M-7 Trigear

DO NOT ARCHIVE



On Tuesday 26 September 2006 1:22 pm, Nick Scholtes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 KitFoxers,



 I've been looking to buy a KitFox for a while now, and am in the process

 of educating myself and also starting to make appointments to look at

 airplanes.



 I want the airplane to have brakes on both sides, as I plan to have some

 students fly left seat in the airplane.  I've talked to several folks

 who are selling  their KitFoxes, and a common comment is, "I originally

 had brakes on both sides, but I removed them from the right side because

 there was a problem with them."



 Could someone educate me on what the problem is, and more specifically,

 is there a solution to it?



 If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I

 wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information do

 I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?  Where

 would I get the parts, and approximately how much would everything cost?



 Any advice would be appreciated.



 Best Regards,



 Nick Scholtes

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kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

Some instructors will not fly in a tailwheel with out right brakes.



--

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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

I have a Model IV Kitfox with brakes on both sides.  Works just great.  Have 

about 1150 hours on plane. Over 1050 from the right seat.  Clint

From: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Issues with Dual Brakes

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:46:24 -0500






Nick,



A couple ideas to think about, from a guy who bought (parts of) a model 7

Trigear and ordered the dual brakes.



1) There is a difference between the trigrear and the tailwheel version -

Tailwheel, you can steer on the ground from the right seat with the linkage

to the tailwheel even without brakes - Trigear - no such thing - all you 

have

on the ground with the trigrear for directional control (since it is not

connected to the pedals) is the throttle and rudder - you can't steer with

brakes you don't have on the trigear from the right seat. If you get the

tailwheel - you definily have an option from the right seat without brakes.



2) How much do you trust students?  Maybe a point to consider together with

item 1 above and some of those cluttered, busy and congested ramps we

sometimes get dragged into against our will. Even a composite propeller will

chew through aluminum and other stuff that some airplanes and gas pumps are

made of.



3) Familiar with the concept? - have something I didn't need vs need 

something

I don't have (like carb heat, brakes, etc...) Maybe I am just paranoid...I

don't know.



Just a couple thoughts; however, it is pretty clear also that people fly

kitfoxes in all kinds of configurations.... successfully



Also - a Kitfox should make a pretty good trainer - light enough on the

controls and you need to use the rudder - two things that really help a a 

new

person learn to feel what they are doing with the airplane.



FYI - the first and only airplane I flew where the instructor was denied the

benefit of brakes with me in the left seat was a Piper Arrow -  that seemed

to touchdown at a somewhat higher speed than a kitfox, but it did have the

benefit of an interconnect with the front training wheel.



Sincerely,



Dave S

St Paul, MN

M-7 Trigear

DO NOT ARCHIVE



On Tuesday 26 September 2006 1:22 pm, Nick Scholtes wrote:

 > 

 >

 > KitFoxers,

 >

 > I've been looking to buy a KitFox for a while now, and am in the process

 > of educating myself and also starting to make appointments to look at

 > airplanes.

 >

 > I want the airplane to have brakes on both sides, as I plan to have some

 > students fly left seat in the airplane.  I've talked to several folks

 > who are selling  their KitFoxes, and a common comment is, "I originally

 > had brakes on both sides, but I removed them from the right side because

 > there was a problem with them."

 >

 > Could someone educate me on what the problem is, and more specifically,

 > is there a solution to it?

 >

 > If I were to buy a KitFox that only had brakes on the left side, and I

 > wanted to install brakes on the right side, what special information do

 > I need to know to get a dual-brake system that really works?  Where

 > would I get the parts, and approximately how much would everything cost?

 >

 > Any advice would be appreciated.

 >

 > Best Regards,

 >

 > Nick Scholtes

 >

 >

 >

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

who needs brakes anyhow   ?



My left one been dead for last 15 hours and i hope to get around to it one 

day before skis go on  

I just do run up on roll,  same as on floats.

Dave

---

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_________________
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shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Issues with Dual Brakes

The left and right seat thing is purely personal training and preference.

It is just as natural for me from the left or the right.  My fox has brakes

on both sides for instructional purposes.  Many brave instructors do it

without breaks, but not me.  I quite often take Young Eagles rides from the

right seat.  Some of the older kids like to play pilot.  Bob U.



---

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