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flaps and flexibility

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akucheck(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: flaps and flexibility

So do answers given to this point change significantly when there is a

strong crosswind?  



Last week a very unusual circumstance occurred at SNA:  I took off on a

short flight to check out a couple of maintenance items.  The ATIS was

calling the wind 200/7 and runways 19 were in use.  The windsock confirmed;

perfectly normal day down here.  I did a short flight and returned for a

practice ILS approach to 19R.  Weather was CAVU and the air was relatively

smooth.  As I got lined up on the approach I got my first indication that

things had changed: I had not been airborne for more than 20 minutes, yet

now on approach I had a WCA of at about 25 degrees to the right to remain on

the ILS.  I was really surprised - what is going on here?.  "John Wayne

tower, windcheck, please."  "Winds 250 at 18 gusting 25".  Interesting...



So I had the opportunity to land back at SNA [nice wide runway] with a

crosswind component of about 15Kts and gusting higher. This is an area where

I have precious little experience in my bird.  As it turned out, this was

one of my better landings ["nothing focuses the mind so much as an imminent

hanging"], but I'm frankly unsure of any Commander-specific recommendations

for this kind of situation. On this day I used half flaps while carrying a

little extra airspeed for the gusts, and consumed significantly more runway

than I usually do.



What is the consensus on flaps and crosswinds?  I have been taught [not

Commander-specific] that strong crosswinds should be met with minimal to

partial flaps.  Agree/disagree for Commanders?



Separately, is there a maximum demonstrated crosswind component for Aero

Commanders? 



Alan 



--

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Hi Alan,



Here at PAO we have frequent 90-degree crosswinds. At DVO, where I fly to 

see my in-laws, the predominant winds are directly across the runway. I've 

never modified my flap usage in those circumstances, and I can easily slip 

the airplane down, landing upwind wheel first, and using no more runway than 

usual.



I seem to recall that twins aren't required to demonstrate a maximum 

crosswind component, and have never seen any for a Commander. I can say that 

I've landed mine in a 30-kt. crosswind (yes...THIRTY!) without any hint of 

loss of directional control. I also seem to recall that the max demonstrated 

crosswind component for most singles is often the highest crosswind 

experienced by the test pilots during certification....



If you want good crosswind practice, I suggest going to DVO (north of SF) 

the next time you're up here!



Cheers,



/J

---

akucheck(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

John:



Thanks for the feedback on x-winds.  



..interesting that you mention DVO.  There is a good likelihood that I will

do a fair number of SNA-DVO trips this year.  Looking at AirNav, I don't see

any fuel or car rental available.  Any experience with either there?



Alan



--

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

I am no airline jock or someone with the privileges that military training

offer. What I had I had to pay for at the local flying school back in the

60's. That was supplemented by many 'Oh sh.t, better not attempt that again'

over the years doing a lot of bush flying. After that disclaimer, back to

the topic.



On cross-winds I key in a slightly higher speed (for gusts as Alan said) and

full flaps. Even Cessna 150's will have all the flaps hanging out upon

landing. In rough air, as soon as I have firm contact with the runway, I

will raise all the flaps. In smooth air, I use the drag to reduce brake use.

Now, I know, many of you will say, one day you're gonna pull the wheels up

and have a very short step down to the runway, but I do a very short-final

check on wheels-down by actually touching (fondling?) the gear handle down

and locked (the Commander's unique lock) and so mentally confirming that the

other handle is the flaps. Raising the flaps drops all tendency to keep on

flying (in case of a gust) and rapidly gives me firm automobile qualities.

There is an exception, however, and that is when wind gusts rock the

airspeed indicator more than 10 knots. For fear of exceeding the flap

extension speed and reducing bending moment on the wing, I will decrease

flaps. Every situation requires its own judgment.



Now I am open to criticism. I can take it.



Nico



with more formal training

---

john(at)vormbaum.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Alan,



There's an Enterprise about 15 min. away from DVO, and they will deliver a 

car to you there. I recommend calling well in advance and being very 

optimistic on your arrival time as it has taken them up to an hour past when 

they say it'll be there for them to actually show up with the car. Their 

contact info is:



ENTERPRISE

7401 REDWOOD BLVD

NOVATO, CA 94945-2423

Tel.: (415) 898-3500



There's Also Novato Cab at 415-485-1234. On weekends there are only 2 cabs 

on duty and it can take them ~45 minutes to get to you.



There is Chevron Fuel on the field and they have a truck....I don't have the 

phone number and can't remember the unicom freq. for them but it's posted at 

the terminal and they've proven very accessible even at odd times.



Incidentally I twice did the same test that you did, only with one key 

difference: they weren't voluntary...I actually had 2 complete hydraulic 

failures, one in my airplane and one in someone else's semi-restored 500B. 

The runway available in each instance was 7,000 ft and 5,000 ft 

respectively. Both times I held the nose off and used aerodynamic drag to 

slow the airplane down (and avoid nosegear collapse; both times I had no 

green light for the nosegear). Both times I had to add power to keep the 

nose off and make it to the end of the runway. The incident in my airplane 

resulted in a very gentle nosegear collapse on the taxiway at about 5 kts. 

(user error....I tried to get too clever while airborne after recognizing 

the failure), and in the borrowed airplane it was a non-event. I never 

thought about distances, but on hindsight I think both airplanes would have 

stopped shy of 3,000 feet. I attribute this to holding the nose off to avoid 

the nosegear collapse; it REALLY slows the airplane down on the ground and I 

think it would be a viable tactic should you have the same problem.



The only good news coming from this experience is the recognition that there 

are very few conventional failures that could be considered emergencies in 

Commanders, and the fact that my nosegear collapse cost me only a bellcrank 

and one gear door...whew!



Also, I discovered that while rolling out on the mains, with a little power 

added, you can maintain elevator authority at very slow speed (~25kts?); I 

kicked in some rudder, and turned 90 degrees onto the taxiway quite easily 

with the nose pretty high in the air. I probably could have taxied under 

power all the way to Morris' hangar before letting the nosegear collapse, 

but that would have just made it easier for Morris to slap me for making 

such a rookie mistake . You know, the airborne one where I touched the 

gear lever one too many times after the loss of hyd. pressure.



---

BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

I recommend full flaps on all landings except maybe very icy runways. Use  

differential power when exceeding more than 1/2 rudder travel.  When on the  

ground the aircraft has a negative angle of attack and sticks quite well.  

Raising the flaps after touchdown helps some but they retract so slow  you  will be 

stopped before they are completely up.

 

Bill Leff

cloudcraft(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Outstanding advice from Bill Leff.



  Since Mr. Leff brought up the icy runway idea ... the ONLY time I'd 

use less than full flaps when landing a Twin Commander was if I was 

carrying airframe ice on the approach. Full flaps could aggravate a 

tail plane stall.



  I wonder if anyone else caught the very sublte but very important 

hint: Bill Leff is offering Commander Training. If I was looking for 

Commander training, I'd go to him (and I used to make my living doing 

Commander training!).



  I've landed in snarling, ripping, Santa Anas tumbleweed blowing, 

sand-blasting, 90 degree cross winds in a Commander. Full flaps. 

Differential power does the trick, coupled with that nice high wing 

that allows all the side slip bank angle you could ever want.



 Wing Commander Gordon



  Imperial Meat Pie? Bill Hamilton, I may print and frame your Oz 

Aviation History post!



 --

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Re: flaps and flexibility

 	  Quote: 	
		  Outstanding advice from Bill Leff. 

	


There is nothing safer than intimate knowledge of your plane from an operational and design standpoint. It was Keiths intimate knowledge of the 685 that enabled me to finally become a competent pilot and a complement from Keith is indeed high praise.

_________________
Milt

bob.steele(at)kzf.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: flaps and flexibility

I will second WCG's suggestion on Bill.  And I speak from experience.



I bought my Commander without having my ME rating.  Dick Wartinger did the

pre-buy for me and then hooked me up with Bill.  At the time Bill was an

MD-80 instructor at TWA (now American).  Due to insurance requirements I had

to spend 25 hours with him and I can tell you he did everything in the world

to me - including pulling engines on take off roll - before and just after

take off (and on hot days).  Bill is definitely old school as well as new

school.  I think I was his first piston student in 20 years - so he insisted

on the best of the good-old-days as well as the new stuff of today.



One of the best things he had me do was may make an actual single engine

landing - not simulated - but feathered left engine out - and because of his

training it was a snap - and it was as if he had ESP.  To make a long story

short - on my ME check ride (with a for-real FAA employee as the examiner) I

actually had to make a single engine landing.  It was a very hot summer day

in August and we were 10 miles from the airport with the right engine out

(long story there).   Due to Bill's training I was not a bit nervous and the

landing at Lunken was a breeze - even taxied all the way back to the FBO and

parked her in an out of the way spot!  (I got a discontinuance because the

FAA man wanted two to see two more take offs and landings - which he got out

of me two weeks later.)  



Thanks to Dick Wartinger I now a have a great instructor and a friend.



Bob Steele

Prestigious Holder of the 2005 Golden Rudder Award 

Can't wait to give it to someone else in Dayton this summer



--

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Great history, Bob.

What's the golden rudder award, Bob?

Pardon my ignorance.

---

wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Folks,

Please feel free to reprint any of my ramblings.

Cheers,

Bill Hamilton





At 01:33 26/01/2006, you wrote:

[quote]

  Wing Commander Gordon



   Imperial Meat Pie? Bill Hamilton, I may print and frame your Oz

Aviation History post!



  --

bob.steele(at)kzf.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: flaps and flexibility

Nico,



I just saw this e-mail, sorry for the slow response.



At the annual Fly-Ins the guys/gals who get there early - mainly Captain Jim

Bob and basically everyone else who is there before you arrive - judge your

taxing.  Whoever does the ugliest job of it, which apparently I did in 2005

at Marina, CA, wins the dang thing.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I can tell - it's all political, there is nepotism involved,

price-fixing, bribery, and all other kinds of orneriness.  The only good
	


thing for 2006 - my hanger is next to Commander-Aero and the only way I can

win it back to back is if they include "planes being parked by a tug!"



Just to be safe, I think I'll just have it parked outside Commaner Aeros's

hanger the day before JB gets there.



Bob Steele



--

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