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Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Guy's experience is similar to mine, though he is in the business and 

probably has a better heads-up than I do.  My research has found several 

formulations of vinyl ester resins.  The two that come to mind are alcohol 

resistant and electrically resistant.



The resin sold in ACS is a DOW product and has been used in highway bridge 

studies.  I personally need it in oz. quantities and the smallest quantity I 

have found is the ACS gallon.  The down side of this material - all vinyl 

ester resins - is that they are "activated" before use and the hardner is 

the usual "peroxide" used with polyester resins.  After activation, the 

resin has a shelf life of 90 days.



I will use one or two ozs. and then toss the rest of the $65 gallon.



If anyone knows where to get this stuff in relatively small quantities, you 

will be doing me a great favor and likely others on the list as well.



Lowell

---

dafox(at)ckt.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

I still think  ethanol is not the answer....  It is just a corrosive

diversion to get a  few more votes.



Noel



 I agree with you 100  %          David  Yeamans    

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Glass is an organic compound????  Mostly silicate when I went to school.

Not a carbon atom to be seen.



For the record I didn't say cars weren't getting better only that there is a

lot more engineering that goes into making a successful plane than into your

run of the mill  Ford or Chev.  And yes you better believe there are parts

that the manufacturers expect to fail inside the warranty periods.  The cost

of their replacement is built into the cars.  Most new front wheel drive

cars, except for the real cheapies, will have their front drive shafts (CV

Joints) replaced within the warranty period.  That all depends on how the

car is driven I guess.



Then I'm at 50' or 3000' I don't need to worry if the innards of my tank

will plug my engine.  You may take that chance.... I won't.   I want to see

some real experimentation done with some real figures.  In the meantime I'll

err on the side of safety ( if I've erred at all)  If that bothers you ...

It should. And perhaps you should stand back and have a look at who is

saying what....



Yes car warranties have been getting longer and cars them selves have been

getting lighter.  There is more plastic on and in new cars than you can

shake a stick at.  Most of this plastic is a great improvement in design.

E.g. the composite springs found on the back of some mini vans are quite

strong at a fraction of the weight of the old steel ones.  All wheel drive

systems are finally coming into their own. Etc, etc...  They still have a

long way to go to catch up with aircraft design engineers.

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

I wonder what will happen if they find out in fifteen years all those

underground composite tanks start to decompose???



Yes don there are no assurances as to what it is you have there and worse

than that changing tanks further down the road is a fairly big time

consuming job....  Especially when you'd sooner be flying.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Gee!  The booze around here doesn't get to stay on the shelves very long so

how do we know the plastic bottles will stand up to a few minor things like

exposure to ultraviolet light, famous for breaking the molecular bonds of

just about any plastic and temperature changes, not to mention vibration.

Yes we can protect our tanks from the UV easily but we have the right to

know what we are getting into before we commit.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

So why would any one in their right mind want to put ethanol contaminated

fuel in these tanks??



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Yours seems to me to be the only independent experiment I've heard about.

Great.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

I think I'll wait until your results are posted before I try anything like

that.... I'm lucky living out in the North Atlantic.  I don't expect to have

my gas supply contaminated with ethanol in the very near future.   Corn in

usable quantities won't grow here and the cost of transporting Eth from the

closest distilleries would be prohibitive.  



Just curious are they (the refiners or governments) putting any thing into

EA85 to make it either poisonous or un-palatable?  Could make for a cheap

weekend 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Lowell,  Just curious where you got 100% ethanol.  Even our plant in Mo. can

only sell denatured alcohol which I believe is something above 98%, to keep

the drinkers from using it.  Also what is 6% mogas.  Do you mean 6% ethanol

and 94% unleaded gasoline.   I've got a Model IV,  9? fox, whatever year

they changed tank material, I'm rebuilding that I'm not sure of the tank

composition, and am trying to decide whether to replace the tanks or slosh

with the PR-1005-L Buna N that seems to be working so well in my combine.

Bob U.



---

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

For those who don't believe in ethanol to "reduce" foreign  oil dependency, they should suggest and PROVE another PRACTICAL  alternative.  I'm hoping, but probably only a big hope, that Hydrogen will  prove out quickly.  Bob U. 

  

 [quote]   ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Bob,  You are correct on the 100%. I am using denatured alcohol, wasn't sure 

of the percentage, but my reading said it acts the same as 100%, what ever 

that means.  I had been lead to understand that the denaturing agent is 

methanol.  I suppose I could get pure ethanol from a pharmaceutical supply 

co. But I no longer have a license to practice dentistry.  We used to use it 

in the old days for gold foil fillings.



The 6% mogas did refer to  94% petrolium fuel and 6% ehtanol.  Sorry for the 

misunderstanding.  I tried to boost the 6% ehtanol to 25% (arbitrary) by 

simply adding the denatured alcohol to the pump fuel, but it won't mix. 

This is one of the fears of higher levels of alcohol in mogas as I 

understand it.  My reading indicates that the alcohol is added to the 

gasoline just prior to shipment to prevent water from getting into the 

alcohol in the stored fuel.  There is a tendency for phase separation and 

when transferring from the truck to the underground tank if not mixed 

completely, the first out of the truck would by higher in ethanol by 

percentage, as ethanol is more dense than the gasoline and settles on the 

bottom like water.



Lowell



---

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

<<<Just curious are they (the refiners or governments) putting any thing

into

EA85 to make it either poisonous or un-palatable?  Could make for a cheap

weekend >>>



15% gasoline!!!!



<<Corn in

 	  Quote: 	
		   usable quantities won't grow here and the cost of transporting Eth from

the
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   closest distilleries would be prohibitive.>>


	


1/2 of our production in Malta Bend Mo, 45 Million gallons, soon to go to 90

million, now goes to California, so the east coast is no farther away.



  Bob U.



---

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

You know a lot more about it than I do chemically.  I know we ship the

denatured product in tanker trucks and rail cars to "blenders", where the

15% gasoline is added to get E85 or 85 to 90%  unleaded gasoline is added to

get E10 or E15.  I've been running around 30% ethanol in an OLD 88 T-bird

for a couple of months by haphazardly blending E85 with unleaded gas at the

fuel pump.  I guess at how much fuel it will take total, add about 30 to 45%

E85 and then fill it up with nonleaded gasoline.  Has taken away a lot of

the misses and hesitations of the old bird, but don't know how much less

fuel economy I'm now getting.  I'm playing around with getting a "blenders"

liscence here on the farm, so I can get the 51 cent Federal tax credit.  I

own several shares in an ethanol plant close by, but the problem is they

can't load small trucks like mine, so would have to go thru a jobber and

they don't want to give up the lucrative tax credit much at all to sell to

me.  Don't know how it will come out in the wash.  In case you are not

familiar with the USD research and web site on AGE85, here it is.   AGE85 is

Aviation Grade Ethanol and doesn't necessarily mean it is 85% ethanol, but

some time gets much higher, approaching95%.  They have 3 airplanes running

on it doing reasearch for the FAA. http://www.age85.org/  Bob U.

---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

They use polyethylene

PW

============



At 05:33 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



Noel, you might note that GM and Ford have intentionally designed some of

their vehicles to run on E85.

Don't know what their fuel tanks are made from, but I'd bet that the car

companies are WAY ahead of most aeroplane builders with regards to this

issue.

Brian



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Reduce dependency at what  cost???  Cheaper to start using diesel engines in smaller domestic  cars.  The VW TDI jetta is quite popular here north of the 49th, as is the  Mercedes smart diesel (if you can find one)

  

 Still takes more than a gallon  of diesel to produce and deliver a gallon of hooch  In my book that's a net  loss.  Those working for the ethanol producers and the oil companies will  say other.  they are well versed at twisting the  figures.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

All the large ships are busy moving oil.  We can't grow the corn here and

the costs would be prohibitive.  "Thank god we're surrounded by water!!" (

that was an Anti-Confederation song 57 years ago.)



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Good post

Let me call attention to pages 20-22, where the 

vapor pressure is noted for auto fuels. Keep in 

mind that high vapor pressure means low boiling 

point and higher risk of vapor lock. It is my 

belief that these tables apply generically to 

auto fuel not just E85. To much work to prove this point.

Class 1 is for hot weather where a high boiling 

point is desirable and class 3 is where it is 

cold and a low boiling point is OK. The you can 

look at your location and see why it is important 

in  a plane to make sure one uses the highest 

boiling point fuel that you can buy. Example when 

traveling S from CO get your fuel south of 34 deg 

latitude in NM. Or even better plan to be low 

just for that purpose. Then when one get to AZ 

fill up with the high boiling point fuel.

Regards, Paul

=================

At 03:17 PM 10/13/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Hi Michel,

You're pointing to a very important problem -soon to come...

First, the PRC 1422(a..B) Pro-Seal, is a well known fuel sealing compound

much used for both jet fuel and 100LL.  This compound is mostly used as a

sealer between joints in wet tanks, but also as a sealer for fasteners

etc. inside fuel tanks. The PRC 1422 "never" harden, but will keep it's

good elastomeric qualities for a very long time..  The problem is that

it's a stuff with "high" viscosity, I.E. cant be sprayed.

Here's a link to the "famous" site    :

http://www.bergdahl.com/Aerocat.htm

Now to the problem, the ethanol fuel E85.

I do not think this kind of fuel can be used for "today’s" aviation.

Firstly, we'll need to find out more accurate information about various

Resins vs. Ethanol and "fiberglass degrade".

So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox???   My Kitfox model II (93

mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks).

Well, here's a little info, copied from the "official" guide, issued by:

The U.S. Department of Energy

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some materials are known to

become degraded by contact with

fuel ethanol blends having high

alcohol concentrations. Zinc, brass,

lead, and aluminum are some of

these sensitive metals. Terne (leadtin-

alloy)-plated steel, which is commonly

used for gasoline fuel tanks,

and lead-based solder are also

incompatible with fuel ethanol.

Avoid using these metals because of

the possibility of vehicle failure or

fuel contamination. Unplated steel,

stainless steel, black iron, and bronze have shown acceptable

resistance to corrosion by ethanol.

Nonmetallic materials that degrade when in contact

with fuel ethanol include natural rubber, polyurethane,

cork gasket material, leather, polyester-bonded fiberglass

laminate, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), polyamides, and

methyl-methacrylate plastics. Nonmetallic materials

that have been successfully used with fuel ethanol

include Buna-N, Neoprene rubber, polyethylene, nylon,

polypropylene, nitrile, Viton, and Teflon.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

You see, aluminum and brass (our carburetor), is among the material that

won't stand the Ethanol...

Ok., here's the link to the full document about Ethanol fuel (E85):

http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/pdfs/ethguide.pdf

This is recommended reading for every one of us.

Torgeir.

A happy model II flier, with Avid wing   , sure you too Michel...

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:55:00 +0200, Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>

wrote:

>

>

>Greetings, Kitfoxers,

>We have been talking about the danger of ethanol in our fiberglass tanks

>for a long time. I have already mentionned what I read on the Jabiru

>Engine list but ... here it is again:

>

>A gentleman called Bill Evans writes:

>

>"The airlines, military and others use thiokol based rubber sealants to

>seal their tanks. Brand names is PRC. You want PRC1422 A2. It's now

>manufactured by ProSeal. Normally lasts for generations."

>

>To what I reply, as previously said on this list: "Yes, but it can't be

>sloshed in our existing tanks."

>

>To what Bill answers:

>

>"So the PRC is not thin but is pourable. The solvent is Methyl Ethyl

>Ketone. (You can only do this outdoors and with the wind to your back.)

>MEK is somewhat soluble in PRC.  You use a paint mixer in an electric

>drill, and thin the PRC with MEK until the sealant will flow

>sufficiently to get 100% coverage. Slosh would be too optimistic. You

>could also spray it in with a new garden sprayer, but that would also

>"seal" the future of your garden sprayer. I have done this... Sprayed

>PRC."

>

>Guys, my brain is as empty as a barrel of beer after being raided by a

>bunch of Norwegian soccer hooligans!  Make up your mind on the above

>information and let me know what the jury has decided. Can we do it?

>

>Thanks in advance,

>

>Michel

>

--

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Yep, chucked my LAST petrol car for a C5 Citroen HDI diesel and has to be 

one of my better decisions...The common rail turbo diesel technology has 

come so far, performance and economy is over whelming





From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:41:19 -0230

Reduce dependency at what cost???  Cheaper to start using diesel engines in 

smaller domestic cars.  The VW TDI jetta is quite popular here north of the 

49th, as is the Mercedes smart diesel (if you can find one)



Still takes more than a gallon of diesel to produce and deliver a gallon of 

hooch  In my book that's a net loss.  Those working for the ethanol 

producers and the oil companies will say other.  they are well versed at 

twisting the figures.

Noel

--

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