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slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

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taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

To the armchair aircraft designers, considering SLATS vs:  NO SLATS. All I have to say is"

  

 INSURANCE ?   INSURANCE ?  INSURANCE?   INSURANCE?   INSURANCE?

  

 Fritz   90/90   Corvair

  

 do not archive

 ---

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Fritz,



That's a good point.  And one that might very well discourage me from giving it a try.



That said, I'm not redesigning anything. I'm just discussing several peoples' reported experience with trying a different configuration.



I'm sure there are some people who self-insure, or take an insurance hit when deciding to use something other than the factory recommended engine installation, for example. 



This is about what turns people on about experimental aircraft.



Bill

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Hi Bill,  I didn't intend my reply as directly to you.  I have tried sending emails directly to this site by typing the address in.  They go out but do not get posted. ------- So now, I  hit "reply" to a  letter and they get posted.  I do try to pick a letter which is very close to the subject and I do try to reword the "subject" so it will be approperiate.  I do not intend to offend anyone. 

  I am familiar with the  "copies " of the 701 and the 60l.   I think it is wrong what that company did to Chris Heintz .

 I scratch built and flew a  701 and I would be the first one to admit that a faster cruise speed, less fuel consumption would be great, but at what cost ? and to who?   I built a 701, registered it as a 701, and insured it as a 701.

  

 In my opinion, taking the slats off  is a major modification and entering the ralm of  "experimental".    Yes I think "experimental " is great.  But once ertering that ralm, one should admit it, and register the aircraft as such,(by this I mean, do not call it a 701) and pay the insurance premimums as necessary.  Not doing this only makes it harder on others i.e. "scratch building".

   ( It could get to the point where Chris H. doesn't want to sell plans or suport the "scratch builder.)  It is not fair for anyone to make a major modification to an airplane and than use the "proven safety record" of the original design to save money on insurance etc.  Not only that,  but the insurance company would most likely refuse to pay a claim if they know the airplane was modified to such an extreme. 

  

 Concerning modification and experimental airplanes.  I have said from the begining that I do not like the "bubble canopy" on the 601.  (no roll over protection)  So, on my 601 (scratch building) I am using a fixed windshield, gullwing doors, with added roll-over bar just forward, and higher than the existing two aluminum tubes just aft of the pilots head.  My canopy, no doubt, would be considered "ugly" by some. ( I have the canopy frame, jigged up and ready for welding.)   It will look like a cross between the Ch 2000 and an Eurcope.  Will I still consider it a 601? Yes.   I plan on getting Chris' approval after I have my canopy finished and I can send Chris some pictures and measurements.    There are several pictures of 601's with gullwing doors on Zenith's website.

  

 Happy building

 Fritz-- 601XL--90/90--- Corvair

 do not archive

 



 

 ---

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Ladies,

remember all the other modsyou will have to make.   The plane is designed for slats so the distance to the prop will be changed.  You may need to move the wing forward. Maybe.  CG wil be affected since leading edge of foil is moved back.  Elevator.  It was designed to pushg the tail down and let the Slat bite into the air.  The same pitch tendency will stall the plane if you don't get rid of the upside down foil.  Other than that, if the guy wants to remove the slats , let him move the slats.  thats the fun of it all.  Maybe it will work so well that the Savanah producers will "borrow " that design as well.  Ouch, sore subject.



Juan



--

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Chris Heintz appears to be a nice person and I  certainly admire him for his accomplishments.  But this ""copies " of the 701" I keep hearing from several  sources needs examining.  I can't speak to a 601, I know very little about  it.

  

 The only thing I know  of on a 701 that is unique and I'm not sure about that, is the inverted  horizontal.  Everything else is a copy.  Slats, thick wings, high  tails, that's all been around for years, pre-WWII.   So basically what  I am saying is that no one has done anything to Chris, Chris didn't do to  someone else.  He copied stuff and put it together.  He put it  together in a nice package, but for all practical purposes it's still  copies.  As for as I know there are no really new designs it a while, they  are all copies of some sort or another.   No one did anything wrong to  Chris, if anything, they improved on his copy of a copy of a copy.  Each  one, hopefully, is an improvement on the last.   

  

 Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com 

 [quote]   ---

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ladies, 

remember all the other modsyou will have to make. The plane is designed for slats so the distance to the prop will be changed. You may need to move the wing forward. Maybe. CG wil be affected since leading edge of foil is moved back. Elevator. It was designed to pushg the tail down and let the Slat bite into the air. The same pitch tendency will stall the plane if you don't get rid of the upside down foil

	




Once again, a guess, and you didn't read from the start of this thread, which began with:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Okay, I recently looked at http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php 

and the claim there is..

	




The basis for my inquiry was some detailed reporting on the behavior of the 701/Savannah with VGs instead of slats.  Go read the web site and email the guy with the Savannah, and then the guy with the 701.



We all have a dozen guesses as to what would happen, it's just interesting that there are people that have chosen to operate in this different configuration, and are happier with the behavior.  Do they have a death wish?  Are they complete wackos?  Lunatics?  People who enjoy rabid stall behavior and high landing speeds, and loss of STOL characteristics?  Possibly. But maybe not.



Bill[/quote]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

After reading the information on StolSpeed Aerodynamics website , I am  inclined to order and try the VGs. It sounds as if they have done quite a bit of  flight testing both on the Savannah and the 701, as well as others. They have  taken a lot of the risk out of the no slat flying. The CG does not appear to be  a problem, The short field stall perfomance is still there and you fly faster,  and use less fuel. Also the website says that the Savannah is coming out with a  no slat model with the VGs. There must be something to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  

 Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much difference  they make.

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87 hrs

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/1/2006 6:49:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ladies,

remember all the other modsyou will have to    make.   The plane is designed for slats so the distance to the prop    will be changed.  You may need to move the wing forward. Maybe.  CG    wil be affected since leading edge of foil is moved back.     Elevator.  It was designed to pushg the tail down and let the Slat bite    into the air.  The same pitch tendency will stall the plane if you don't    get rid of the upside down foil.  Other than that, if the guy wants to    remove the slats , let him move the slats.  thats the fun of it    all.  Maybe it will work so well that the Savanah producers will "borrow    " that design as well.  Ouch, sore  subject.



Juan



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Bob,

 Keep us informed about the results of your  fairings....

  

 Tommy Walker in Alabama

 Do Not Archive....

  

  

  ...Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much  difference  

      they  make....

      

       Bob Spudis

      N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87  hrs

      



   [quote][b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Tommy,

  

 I have good news and bad news. One of the strut fairings that I received  from Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline and  he called back with the bad news and said do not install any of them, they just  inspected the whole batch and there is a problem with all of them. They have to  run a whole new batch, I guess there was a problem with the die. I guess the  good news is I don't have to pull my struts yet.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 11/2/2006 9:19:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  twalker(at)cableone.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Bob,

   Keep us informed about the results of your    fairings....

    

   Tommy Walker in Alabama

   Do Not Archive....

    

    

    ...Meantime my strut fairings just arrived and I will se how much    difference  

      they     make....

      

         Bob Spudis

      N701ZX/ CH701/ 912S/ 87    hrs



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

rwehba(at)cebridge.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

for what it is worth,, vg's must have something going for them have noticed  several 18 wheelers with them down the sides of the cab at the back,, must do  something to the airflow between the cab and trailer. oh and they are about 3"  wide 3" long and taper.

 [quote]   ---

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

Bob,

  

 I thought they were just flat pieces of sheet bent to an  aerodyamic form.  I didn't know they were extruded.

  

 Tommy Walker in Alabama

 Do Not Archive

  

  

 ....I have good news and bad news. One of the strut  fairings that I received  

      from  Streamline had a slight crack in the extrusion. I spoke with Streamline  and

      



   [quote][b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Re: slats vs no slats + insrance problems ??

 	  taffy0687(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Hi Bill,  I didn't intend my reply as directly to you.  I have tried sending emails directly to this site by typing the address in.  They go out but do not get posted.?------- So now, I  hit "reply" to a  letter and they get posted.  I do try to pick a letter which is very close to the subject and I do try to reword the "subject" so it will be approperiate.  I do not intend to offend anyone. 

  I am familiar with the  "copies " of the 701 and the 60l.   I think it is wrong what that company did to Chris Heintz .

 I scratch built and flew a  701 and I would be the first one to admit that a faster cruise speed, less fuel consumption would be great, but at what cost ? and to who?   I built a 701, registered it as a 701, and insured it as a 701.

  

 In my opinion, taking the slats off  is a major modification and entering the ralm of  "experimental".    Yes I think "experimental " is great.? But once ertering that ralm, one should admit it, and register the aircraft as such,(by this I mean, do not call it a 701) and pay the insurance premimums as necessary.  Not doing this only makes it harder on others i.e. "scratch building".

   ( It could get to the point where Chris H. doesn't want to sell plans or suport the "scratch builder.)  It is not fair for anyone to make a major modification to an airplane and than use the "proven safety record" of the original design to save money on insurance etc.  Not only that,  but the insurance company would most likely refuse to pay a claim if they know the airplane was modified to such an extreme. 

  

 Concerning modification and experimental airplanes.  I have said from the begining that I do not like the "bubble canopy" on the 601.  (no roll over protection)  So, on my 601 (scratch building) I am using a fixed windshield, gullwing doors, with added roll-over bar just forward, and higher than the existing two aluminum tubes just aft of the pilots head.  My canopy, no doubt, would be considered "ugly" by some. ( I have the canopy frame, jigged up and ready for welding.)   It will look like a cross between the Ch 2000 and an Eurcope.  Will I still consider it a 601? Yes.   I plan on getting Chris' approval after I have my canopy finished and I can send Chris some pictures and measurements.    There are several pictures of 601's with gullwing doors on Zenith's website.

  

 Happy building

 Fritz-- 601XL--90/90--- Corvair

 do not archive

 --- 	




Can you post some pixs and design notes of your canopy. I've been wanting this mod myself. Thanks

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