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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei |
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At 02:53 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: | Conclusion
One pilot may, under Sport pilot privileges, operate the aircraft at a
“maximum takeoff weight” up to 1320 lbs, another pilot flying under
private pilot privileges, up to the design weight, in this case 1400 lbs.
Same aircraft.
A Kitfox Series 7 has a design weight of up to 1550 lbs, yet if the
sum of (1),(2), (3), and (4) is not greater then “maximum takeoff
weight” of 1320 lbs as defined, and the other parameters are met, it
too may be operated by a pilot flying under Sport Pilot privileges.
One must read and understand the Final Rule and apply it correctly to the
regulation it governs.
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Hi Steve,
Are you saying that your FSDO or the FAA have corroborated your
logic and have agreed that you may fly a 1400# gross aircraft as a sport
pilot? As you can see from Tim's post, the FAA's agreement is more
important than your logic's perfection.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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84KF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs |
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There is no logic necessary, just the ability to read and add.
Here is a webpage from Van's. Read and see how it is a "useful load" situation, not a "how much has it been designed to safely lift".
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm
Read that and then go back and read the original post. same thing , different authors. or do we both "just" have the same "logic" Perhaps someone would care to inform Van's they are wrong too.
A problem is that if your (or mine) local FAA guy is not aware of the definition of "maximum gross weight" that applies to the regulation, all he will reference is whatever he is familiar with and use his own definition. They get in a "Gross weight" mentality.
When the BIG GUY in the FAA wrote the words "maximum takeoff weight" in the lightsport definition, he also wrote the definition of "maximum takeoff" that he requires you to use when applying it.
He just didn't put it on the same page.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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wingnut
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs |
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The specs for the RV12 list the gross weight as 1320lb.
| Quote: | | Here is a webpage from Van's. Read and see how it is a "useful load" situation, not a "how much has it been designed to safely lift". |
Also. Isn't the baggage allowance on the 7 listed as 150lb?
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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84KF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs |
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The specs for the RV12 list the gross weight as 1320lb.
Yes, because they will offer the aircraft for ELSA airworthiness certification.
Isn't the baggage allowance on the 7 listed as 150lb?
A baggage compartment CAPACITY is 150lbs.
The "baggage allowence" means "allow for the bags, or anything, you are bringing with you in the aircraft" and in the original example 25 lbs of "baggage" has been included. Carry as much "baggage as you wish as long as you do not excced the "maximum takeoff weight" of 1320 lbs.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs "maximum takeoff wei |
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At 06:09 PM 11/1/2006, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Read that and then go back and read the original post. same thing , different authors. or do we both "just" have the same "logic" Perhaps someone would care to inform Van's they are wrong too. |
I still don't understand. Van's website says:
"We are trying to achieve a 550 lb payload this equates to two 190 lb people, 120 lbs of fuel and 50 lbs of baggage. If you subtract this payload from the maximum 1320 lb gross weight dictated by Light Sport regulations, you can see that the empty weight of the airplane must be around 750 lbs to allow for the inevitable creep or miscalculation."
What part of ". . . 1320 lb gross weight dictated by Light Sport regulations . . ." am I not understanding? Is it perhaps the definition of gross weight?
| Quote: |
A problem is that if your (or mine) local FAA guy is not aware of the definition of "maximum gross weight" that applies to the regulation, all he will reference is whatever he is familiar with and use his own definition. They get in a "Gross weight" mentality.
When the BIG GUY in the FAA wrote the words "maximum takeoff weight" in the lightsport definition, he also wrote the definition of "maximum takeoff" that he requires you to use when applying it.
He just didn't put it on the same page. |
Are you seriously telling me that your personal interpretation is going to hold over the FAA's? Or are you offering to fight this to the top on behalf of all Light Sport pilots? If so, I heartily thank you in advance, both for your insight and for your perseverance.
Respectfully,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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84KF
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Do the math... Series 5 & 7 vs |
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Reverse engineering.
What Van's is getting at is that if they take a "maximum takeoff weight senerio of as they say A 550 lb. payload – this equates to two 190 lb. people, 120 lbs. of fuel and 50 lbs. of baggage.
( which is items (2) +(3) +(4) and subtract it from 1320lbs the remainder is what the must keep the airframe\engine empty weight at or below 750lbs to be able to meet the definition of "maximum takeoff weight
Remember..... If Empty weight + both seats filled, + full tanks and a bit of baggage is less than 1320 you have meet the definition for "maximum takeoff weight "
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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