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Lycoming Data Plate

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PGLong

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

I've been told that the data plate on my Lycoming 0-230 installed in my  RV-4 is not in compliance with the FAR’s. The engine has some modifications on  it, and I do not maintain an A.D. list, so the engine is experimental. Is it  true that only a certified engine can retain its data plate? Who can remove a  data plate? How would the FAA handle this situation? 

  

 

 Pat  Long

PGLong(at)aol.com

N120PL

RV4

Bay City,  Michigan

3CM

 



  [quote][b]

_________________
Pat Long
RV-4, N120PL
Bay City, MI

jrccea(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

The engine is not an O-230.  It is either an O-235, or perhaps a typo for an O-320.  Anyone can remove a data plate, but the engine cannot be returned to certified status afterward.  

PGLong(at)aol.com wrote: [quote]   

   

I've been told that the data plate on my Lycoming 0-230 installed in my RV-4 is not in compliance with the FARs. The engine has some modifications on it, and I do not maintain an A.D. list, so the engine is experimental. Is it true that only a certified engine can retain its data plate? Who can remove a data plate? How would the FAA handle this situation?  

   

 Pat Long 

PGLong(at)aol.com 

N120PL 

RV4 

Bay City, Michigan 

3CM 

  [quote]  [b]

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

You do not need to nor  should you remove the data plate. It is just the identifier for a part. It is no  different nor any more special than the data plates on your starter, fuel pump,  radios, ELT or propeller. No one ever suggests removing the data plates or  grinding off the part numbers for every component on our aircraft. Any component  can be reused on a certified aircraft IF, big IF, the mechanic can satisfy  himself with the service history and that the component conforms to it's  original design and is airworthy. Lack of an AD list or non-AP signoffs or no  log entries would be a red flag to most reputable mechanics leading to a  tear-down for the conformity check. Parts with non-certified histories are  returned to service all the time, including in the airlines. A US-built but  foreign registered and maintained aircraft and all its components is just as  "non-certified" as your RV. I participated in re-certifying a KLM 747, among  others, for a US airline I worked for. It's just a matter of the level of  inspection or repair $$$ required. Leave the data plate where it  is.

  

 Regards,

Greg Young - Houston (DWH)

RV-6 N6GY - project  Phoenix

Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A

 [quote]   

 

   

         

    

I've been told that the data plate on my Lycoming 0-230 installed in my    RV-4 is not in compliance with the FAR’s. The engine has some modifications on    it, and I do not maintain an A.D. list, so the engine is experimental. Is it    true that only a certified engine can retain its data plate? Who can remove a    data plate? How would the FAA handle this situation?   

    

 

   Pat    Long

PGLong(at)aol.com

N120PL

RV4

Bay City,    Michigan

3CM

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

jrccea(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

a url of interest:



http://www.rollanet.org/~mopilots/stlouis/jan2005nws.htm

douglas.dodson(at)pobox.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

Based on the letter referenced in the URL, I would say that one should

ensure the engine and propeller are NOT type certificated at the time the

limitations and original airworthiness certificate are issued.  This could

be done with any number of somewhat minor modifications I would think.

Removing the type certificate designation after the original issuance could

be done as well I would think, but the aircraft would revert to Phase I for

a time.



Douglas L. Dodson, Jr.

Glasair II-S FT

Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A,G



--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it

pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft.  One point that was missed,

if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation

regarding modification or change to said parts.  Following any change to

the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original

part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided

the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or

modification.



One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper

#007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that

way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go.



The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified

aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories.  Once modified or

changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's

because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said

Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming

O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer

subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320).  If

a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then

the compliance to the AD is mandatory.



Mike Larkin



--

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

It does however note that if the experimental aircraft received its

operating limitations and certificate with a certified engine

installed, then it should get a modified operating limitations when

the engine is modified to make it no longer of approved type design.

It would be wise for the repaiman signing the condition inspection to

have reviewed ADs, so that you know if Lycoming has a crank problem in

same model engine, and you have that crank, that you are risking crank

failure if you don't heed the AD. As in use some common sense to

ensure your engine truly is airworthy.



On 11/13/06, Mike <mlas(at)cox.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it

 pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft.  One point that was missed,

 if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation

 regarding modification or change to said parts.  Following any change to

 the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original

 part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided

 the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or

 modification.



 One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper

 #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that

 way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go.



 The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified

 aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories.  Once modified or

 changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's

 because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said

 Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming

 O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer

 subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320).  If

 a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then

 the compliance to the AD is mandatory.



 Mike Larkin



 --

s_korney(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

Mike ...



With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, log it in 

the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that 

correct...?



Best... Steve



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: engines-list(at)matronics.com

To: <engines-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Lycoming Data Plate

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:28:54 -0700






I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it

pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft.  One point that was missed,

if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation

regarding modification or change to said parts.  Following any change to

the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original

part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided

the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or

modification.



One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper

#007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that

way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go.



The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified

aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories.  Once modified or

changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's

because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said

Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming

O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer

subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320).  If

a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then

the compliance to the AD is mandatory.



Mike Larkin



--

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the url cited earlier:

"The acting legal counsel also addressed the act of removing data
	


plates to avoid compliance with AD's. His Memorandum states that the

act of removing the data plate of a type-certificated product is

addressed in Part 45. Section 45.13 of that Part prohibits removing

data plates without the approval of the FAA. There are no exceptions

granted in that Part for engines or propellers installed in

amateur-built aircraft. Simply removing a data plate does not alter

the type design or nature of the engine or propeller. "

Don't blame me, the messenger, take it up with your FSDO.

On 11/13/06, steve korney <s_korney(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 Mike ...



 With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, log it in

 the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that

 correct...?



 Best... Steve



 ----Original Message Follows----

 From: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net>

 Reply-To: engines-list(at)matronics.com

 To: <engines-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Lycoming Data Plate

 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:28:54 -0700



 



 I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it

 pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft.  One point that was missed,

 if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation

 regarding modification or change to said parts.  Following any change to

 the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original

 part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided

 the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or

 modification.



 One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper

 #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that

 way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go.



 The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified

 aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories.  Once modified or

 changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's

 because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said

 Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming

 O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer

 subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320).  If

 a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then

 the compliance to the AD is mandatory.



 Mike Larkin



 --

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> From the url cited earlier:

 "The acting legal counsel also addressed the act of removing data

 plates to avoid compliance with AD's. His Memorandum states that the

 act of removing the data plate of a type-certificated product is

 addressed in Part 45. Section 45.13 of that Part prohibits removing

 data plates without the approval of the FAA. There are no exceptions

 granted in that Part for engines or propellers installed in

 amateur-built aircraft. Simply removing a data plate does not alter

 the type design or nature of the engine or propeller. "

 Don't blame me, the messenger, take it up with your FSDO.

 On 11/13/06, steve korney <s_korney(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

> 

> <s_korney(at)hotmail.com>

>

> Mike ...

>

> With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, 

> log it in

> the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that

> correct...?

>

> Best... Steve

 >snipped>

Unless you have the misfortune to live in that particular FSDO area, the 

document in question is nothing but an example of the thinly disguised 

anarchy that serves as the FAA. (A good thing, in my opinion.)

The FSDO inspector here *took* the Lyc dataplate from my neighbor when 

he did the inspection on a new homebuilt design. When my neighbor hung 

the same engine on another new airframe (an RV-8, this time), the same 

FSDO wanted to know where his dataplate was. (Answer: 'You took it.')

I'm sure that there is diversity of opinion among FSDO's on a 

'certified' part keeping its status when hung on an experimental, but 

over the 15+ years I've been involved with homebuilts the most common 

position I've seen is that the part loses its certified status the 

moment it becomes part of a non-certified system. Consider the 

underlying logic: in the certified world, Lyc makes dozens of O-320's 

but only a few are typically legal for a particular airframe because the 

rest haven't been tested on that airframe. Similarly, only a handful of 

propellers are certified for a particular engine on a particular 

airframe. If you create an untested combination, you don't know if it's 

safe until it's tested and 'the paperwork is done'. No 'paperwork' has 

ever been done on any certified engine that's been hung on an RV, so how 

can it be proven to the bureaucracy that it's *legally* safe?

The only perceivable logic in giving a shorter test period when using a 

'certified' engine/prop combination on a homebuilt is that you are at 

least starting with two parts that are known to work ok together (but 

still a legal unknown on a homebuilt).

Charlie

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

The statement below muddies the waters regarding the question of AD

compliance on aircraft certified experimental homebuilt.  IF you modify

a certified propeller, engine, airframe, or accessory you may be

required (based on the operation limitation issued during certification)

to return the airplane to Phase I for flight testing and then upon

successful completion of Phase I return the aircraft back to Phase II

and operate the aircraft in accordance to you operating limitations.  So

if you have a certified MT propeller and you want to change the shape of

the blades (the following is subject to the limitations issued at

certification, older limitations require submission or notification to

your local FSDO of changes and/or modifications and later limitations

require returning the aircraft to Phase I before operating the airplane

outside of the test flight area) you may make the change fly off the

Phase I testing and return to Phase II upon successful testing.  Now

with our newly changed prop, the FAA issues an AD on the original prop

model you are not required to comply.  Not because it is exclusive

experimental, but because it is no longer the same prop buy part number

previously listed.  Now common sense suggests that if an AD came out and

a potential safety hazard exists then it would make sense to consider

the AD.  With homebuilt aircraft always remember that you are the

designer, engineer, and builder.  It is up to you to decide what You

want and don't want in your airplane.  



Mike Larkin

--

w_sweet(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

---

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Lycoming Data Plate

Yes, I agree Wayne.



MIke



--

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