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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
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 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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This year there is an advantage to living in Southern California, that being that AOPA held the convention 1.5 hours drive away. So I took the drive up yesterday and took in all the sites. There were a lot of anxious companies ready to sell me their latest creations, some were really nice when I explained I had an "experimental RV-10 aircraft" (well we all know I don't, but I sure as heck wasn't going to go into details). Most, if not all of them, knew exactly what the plane was, which means there is a presence in the market, others were kind to explain their avionics cost as much as the completed RV-10 and yet 1 was short of completely brushing me off as "we don't have the time to spend selling to indivduals, have Van's contact us to work something out".
Overall I had an enjoyable experience, this certainly isn't a Oshkosh but for me the distance made it well worth the effort. I spoke with Gus from Van's and he was great in taking all the time I needed to discuss the RV-10, I never led on that I knew he provided the Tech support nor that I had a clue about the RV-10. He kindly discussed the engineering of the wing and the idea of adding winglets (like the Lancairs Columbias have and the new option for the Husky') that adds 5mph in cruise and that it would add little to no benefit on the RV-10 shaped wings, which are different that the latter two. He also gave me his thoughts on the idea of sticking with a Lycoming 540 versus a Continental (higher weight and more GPH) and other "experimental engines". With that I went out and saw the vendors and tried to ascertain more knowledge for future planning.
Lycoming Thunderbolt- I met up with Jon Delamarter and he gave me the latest on the Thunderbolt engines and the advancements they are making with a FADEC type concept as well as 10:1 pistons and a cold fusion system, I could tell he was really excited about the future technology that Thunderbolt is coming out with in the next year and the competitive pricing. I left pretty excited myself seeing where they have gotten since starting up and what is yet to come from them.
SMA- I'll try to be nice here but I was totally disappointed with them. I figured they had a good case for less GPH higher TBO of 3K hrs, integrated engine monitoring and using diesel but the sales guy attitude mysteriusly diminished when I told them I wanted it for an experimental, he simply didn't see my as a potential customer, to the people around me they handed out brochures and went through it with them, with me there was nothing, no brochure no "need" to review and the advice to get everyone to tell Van's that they need to contact SMA so builders can use the engines but until Van's does (which I understand they have no interest in anything other than what Gus mentioned, the Lycoming) SMA has no interest in working with the builders- to hell with them I thought and moved on to better solutions.
Superior XP400- Interesting is what I thought. They have the XP400SRE that can put out 250hp, it was tested in the Lancair (at) the Reno races and seemed like an option, I found it interesting, maybe because there is only the one engine out there but the sales guy, although very nice, really didn't know much about the engine.. how much does.will it cost?, what is the GPH? what is the TBO? can I build this engine like the XP-360?, etc.. his response "I'll look that up in my binder... hmm nothing there.. sorry, shame on me but I don't have the answer" is what I got for each question.
I saw numerous avionics in action, Op Tech, Dynon, Garmin, Chelton and they all have great features and nice looking displays, although Optech had the best support crew (in regards to explaining all the features and admitting future fixes for gaps, Chelton seemed to address those gaps headon with "current fix in new release" for people like Tim, I overheard there is a new code released for the Chelton that is far superior to the previous version, or so the sales person was telling a potential customer, it is either still beta or just released but worth looking into.
Based on the convention I am sold on the Van's support from Gus, he took his time, never felt rushed and the answers were honest, well researched and to the point. Engine wise, I am even more sold on the Thunderbolt, a new engine with custom options and a rep that knew his engine, pricing, current developments and anxious to work with the RV-10 builders to get us the right engine for our plane.. the other vendors just didn't seem to even come close to this.
Overall, a great experience!
Pascal
[quote][b]
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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Thunderbolt has a cold fusion system. Wow! Talk about jumping ahead of the competition! Heh.
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 1:36 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts
This year there is an advantage to living in Southern California, that being that AOPA held the convention 1.5 hours drive away. So I took the drive up yesterday and took in all the sites. There were a lot of anxious companies ready to sell me their latest creations, some were really nice when I explained I had an "experimental RV-10 aircraft" (well we all know I don't, but I sure as heck wasn't going to go into details). Most, if not all of them, knew exactly what the plane was, which means there is a presence in the market, others were kind to explain their avionics cost as much as the completed RV-10 and yet 1 was short of completely brushing me off as "we don't have the time to spend selling to indivduals, have Van's contact us to work something out".
Overall I had an enjoyable experience, this certainly isn't a Oshkosh but for me the distance made it well worth the effort. I spoke with Gus from Van's and he was great in taking all the time I needed to discuss the RV-10, I never led on that I knew he provided the Tech support nor that I had a clue about the RV-10. He kindly discussed the engineering of the wing and the idea of adding winglets (like the Lancairs Columbias have and the new option for the Husky') that adds 5mph in cruise and that it would add little to no benefit on the RV-10 shaped wings, which are different that the latter two. He also gave me his thoughts on the idea of sticking with a Lycoming 540 versus a Continental (higher weight and more GPH) and other "experimental engines". With that I went out and saw the vendors and tried to ascertain more knowledge for future planning.
Lycoming Thunderbolt- I met up with Jon Delamarter and he gave me the latest on the Thunderbolt engines and the advancements they are making with a FADEC type concept as well as 10:1 pistons and a cold fusion system, I could tell he was really excited about the future technology that Thunderbolt is coming out with in the next year and the competitive pricing. I left pretty excited myself seeing where they have gotten since starting up and what is yet to come from them.
SMA- I'll try to be nice here but I was totally disappointed with them. I figured they had a good case for less GPH higher TBO of 3K hrs, integrated engine monitoring and using diesel but the sales guy attitude mysteriusly diminished when I told them I wanted it for an experimental, he simply didn't see my as a potential customer, to the people around me they handed out brochures and went through it with them, with me there was nothing, no brochure no "need" to review and the advice to get everyone to tell Van's that they need to contact SMA so builders can use the engines but until Van's does (which I understand they have no interest in anything other than what Gus mentioned, the Lycoming) SMA has no interest in working with the builders- to hell with them I thought and moved on to better solutions.
Superior XP400- Interesting is what I thought. They have the XP400SRE that can put out 250hp, it was tested in the Lancair (at) the Reno races and seemed like an option, I found it interesting, maybe because there is only the one engine out there but the sales guy, although very nice, really didn't know much about the engine.. how much does.will it cost?, what is the GPH? what is the TBO? can I build this engine like the XP-360?, etc.. his response "I'll look that up in my binder... hmm nothing there.. sorry, shame on me but I don't have the answer" is what I got for each question.
I saw numerous avionics in action, Op Tech, Dynon, Garmin, Chelton and they all have great features and nice looking displays, although Optech had the best support crew (in regards to explaining all the features and admitting future fixes for gaps, Chelton seemed to address those gaps headon with "current fix in new release" for people like Tim, I overheard there is a new code released for the Chelton that is far superior to the previous version, or so the sales person was telling a potential customer, it is either still beta or just released but worth looking into.
Based on the convention I am sold on the Van's support from Gus, he took his time, never felt rushed and the answers were honest, well researched and to the point. Engine wise, I am even more sold on the Thunderbolt, a new engine with custom options and a rep that knew his engine, pricing, current developments and anxious to work with the RV-10 builders to get us the right engine for our plane.. the other vendors just didn't seem to even come close to this.
Overall, a great experience!
Pascal
[quote]
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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Yeah, they've got one, but when asked for a price (at) Copperstate, John C.
and I were quoted almost $9K !!!!!!!!!!!! That's not too competitive.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
| Quote: | Thunderbolt has a cold fusion system. Wow! Talk about jumping ahead
of the competition! Heh.
Do not archive
*
*
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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BPA(at)bpaengines.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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MICHAEL!!!…………………heh heh
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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Cold Fusion and Flux Capacitors - McFly or was that Keanu Reaves?
A few on this list are not aware of the stock differences between
Continental and Lycoming designs on the treatment of induction fuel/air
delivery. Barrett makes a remarkable Cold Air Induction system worthy
of some research. With the first generation James Cowl, modifications
to Cold Air Induction triggered a second generation. Advantages and
disadvantages have not yet been posted here, even in light of Jon's
youthful exuberance from Thunderbolt and Pascal's enthusiasm at the AOPA
convention. It may have been sun stroke.
Delivering a quality and well balance air/fuel charge with maximum
volumetric efficiency can lead to higher performance and fuel economy.
Something our dependence on a reliable fuel source is critically
connected to.
Anh, I am still on the edge of my seat regarding your fuel solution and
whether your vendor had anything to do with it. We play hell with
French Canadians providing world class parts service at work. Seems
they are about to shut down for a month long holiday.
Choose a vendor with a track record and one who will stand by you during
these times of pain.
John Cox #600
--
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wcurtis(at)core.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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You are thinking cold induction, he said Cold Fusion! I would think you could do warp, or at least ludicrous speed with that. Do not archive >Yeah, they've got one, but when asked for a price (at) Copperstate, John C. >and I were quoted almost $9K !!!!!!!!!!!! That's not too >competitive. > >Deems Davis # 406 >Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) >http://deemsrv10.com/ > >>RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: >> >> Thunderbolt has a cold fusion system. Wow! Talk about jumping ahead >> of the competition! Heh. >> >> Do not archive William Curtis 40237 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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Ya, I thought that was funny. Incidentally besides being rather expensive, I believe the Lycoming version is also a fair amount heavier than other aftermarket versions such as Barrett's.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W. Curtis
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:59 PM
To: RV10-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AOPA engine vendor thoughts
You are thinking cold induction, he said Cold Fusion! I would think you could do warp, or at least ludicrous speed with that.
Do not archive
| Quote: | Yeah, they've got one, but when asked for a price (at) Copperstate, John C.
and I were quoted almost $9K !!!!!!!!!!!! That's not too >competitive.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
>RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Thunderbolt has a cold fusion system. Wow! Talk about jumping ahead
> of the competition! Heh.
>
> Do not archive
|
William Curtis 40237
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ [quote]
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: AOPA engine vendor thoughts |
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Paul, speak up on this one, both from delivery weight (sans alternator and starter) along with final cost. Jon needs some support on the Cold Fusion thing. Delivery commitment to the builder from time of payment receipt is also a valued benchmark. There are a lot of six cylinder engine sales coming in the next 12 months.
Bridge to Engineering: “Warp Factor Six Scotty”.
Engineering reply: “But Captain, I’m giving her all she’s got but those rotary Mazda’s are closing in on us. I don’t’ think the Cold Fusion unit will hold together much longer”.
John C
Please Do not Archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:45 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: AOPA engine vendor thoughts
Ya, I thought that was funny. Incidentally besides being rather expensive, I believe the Lycoming version is also a fair amount heavier than other aftermarket versions such as Barrett's.
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of W. Curtis
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:59 PM
To: RV10-List(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AOPA engine vendor thoughts
You are thinking cold induction, he said Cold Fusion! I would think you could do warp, or at least ludicrous speed with that.
Do not archive
>Yeah, they've got one, but when asked for a price (at) Copperstate, John C.
>and I were quoted almost $9K !!!!!!!!!!!! That's not too >competitive.
>
>Deems Davis # 406
>Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
>http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>>RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>>
>> Thunderbolt has a cold fusion system. Wow! Talk about jumping ahead
>> of the competition! Heh.
>>
>> Do not archive
William Curtis 40237
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ [quote] href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.comhref="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.comhref="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List [b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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