 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mgeans(at)provide.net
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
 |
|
All,
For those that may be interested and some who may be
lurking, attached is some observations/converastions that
my wife and I had based on all of the replies we recieved
from the Kits and Family thread.
It is a bit long, ~3 pages in Word, but an interesting read
for those wanting to add thier 2 cents (we describe our
buidling status scenerio in more detail and invite
suggestions) and those considering building to have some
helpful insight.
On another note:
I fished for a reply with a one liner on the original post
with no specific replies and will try once more. It may
have gotten scanned over.
I have an opportunity to switch careers in which my
employer will be overseas. If anyone has any expirience or
knows someone who does, in such matters and what to be wary
of or be sure you include in your "package" as an employee
I would like to share more info about the scenerio for your
feedback. It is a life altering opportunity and I am
checking all sorts of leads where I could make myself
knowledgeable before my visit with them.
For those who are considering a build, or know of someone
who is, I will be downloading all the replies that we
recieved from this original post into a Word document to
consolidate all the advice for our and anyone's future use.
Contact me directly if you would be interested in getting
this document.
Thanks to all for your help.
Matt Geans
Builder Wanna-be
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
| Description: |
|
Download |
| Filename: |
Kit_and_family_reply.doc |
| Filesize: |
28 KB |
| Downloaded: |
145 Time(s) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
Just build!!! Less talk !!! Just build!!! You can do it!!!
Please take no offence but you could have built half the tail while ...well
im not sure realy what you were actualy on about!!.
Please take no offece and as I say to my builders Just build ....no time and
space....I built my whole tail and cone on the dining room table and
bedtroom while also building a house for us to move into.
No Money get a part time job ( cant build a 10 on fireman wages)!
Its easy just do it.............Build.......... An hour a day and you will
finish.
Again take no offence
Kind regards Chris 388
---
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
Matt, (and any other interested)
Ok, ya'll are gonna have to hold back from being too romantic
about this post....it was actually written by my wife in regards
to her thoughts about the Family experience of building an RV-10.
After reading it, I thought I better just make it a web page, because
it may be appreciated by other people down the road. Here's the
link to it:
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/why/wifesperspective.html
---------
Also, Matt, I read your word doc, and it looks like you're going about
things the very right way....really thinking it through and including
your wife in the thought process. I commend you for that!
My couple of quick comments on the write up you did:
* I totally understand your concern on 5000 hour airframes...but that
said, a good inspection on some of the common models of planes can
turn up most problems. Certified planes aren't falling out of the sky
at an alarming rate, so I wouldn't worry too much about it if you get
a good pre-buy inspection of a certified bird. I'd actually be more
fearful buying a pre-built kit, because you're buying someone elses
possibly poor building decisions.
Regarding wife's help....I would be willing to bet that in your
case, with very young kids, you'll be lucky to get even a couple
or few dozen good hours of help. That's not saying ANYTHING bad
about your wife, but she's gonna be a busy lady for a long time.
Just be happy she'll take a majority of the misc. work. My wife's
write-up (above) reminded me that she really took care of most of
the meals, the household duties, the lawn mowing, and lots more,
while I built. We also didn't go places, and I didn't fix cars
as quickly and generally let the house, vehicles, and yard
deteriorate a bit in order to get to completion...trying to shorten
the pain, even though it might be more intense. So don't bother
trying to talk her into help. Just hope you can talk her into
letting you NOT help around the house much.
You asked how my kids stayed involved. Here's my dirty secret.
I'm a sociable guy. For me, building was a very lonely experience.
A couple thousand hours of being alone working on a plane could be
a dream for some, and misery for others. For me it was a
miserably fun time.  I loved the progress, got depressed by
the lack of it at times, and generally just wished the family
would please come out and see me once in a while. The kids?
They loved to come out for a minute or two and play with things,
which usually resulted in me getting upset. "Put down that primer,
and get some gloves on!", and "QUIT HAMMERING ON THAT WING, I want
it to stay nice!"...that kind of thing. It was great to have them
there, but the BEST was when they were just THERE, and watched
TV while I worked. Other times, it just slowed me down.
Now, don't anyone ever tell that I said that. My kids were just
coming up on 5 and 7 at the time of completion. So they were
just almost 3 and 5 when I started. I could not have started
it even a few months earlier and had such success, because I
really had to wait until they grew big enough to deal with better.
Regarding the LSA step, I really think that's taking the hard and
long road. Buying a certified plane is nice in that you buy it,
put your time in, and then sell it for a similar cost of your
entry cost. My Sundowner cost $45K, and we sold it for $48K or
so. I got a few hundred hours out of it, and sold it for enough
that we pocketed the engine reserve! You may not make out as
well buying some brands of kits, and then you have to suffer
through the build process. While you have tiny kids, just get
a good flying plane and have some experiences to break them in...skip
the building until it fits your family's life well. We started
flying both our kids at 5 weeks old. They've never been afraid
of flying.
About the BRS....if you're seriously interested in that, and
the stuff you said about old planes, you actually may find a
better temporary fit buy partnering with someone in a new
or new/used Cirrus. You could get a 1/2 share for less than
an RV-10 of similar equipment pretty easily I'd think. Heck,
people forget about one important thing.....in many cases, in
fact most cases, if you're not flying at least 100 hours per year
you're actually better off renting. Blasphemy, I know, but if you
have a rental Cirrus in your area, that could be a great way to
spend the next 3 years while you buy yourself some time adjusting
your family's life.
Reading the end of your word .doc, I see you realize the most important
fact....flying, that's the important thing. You don't have to give
up flying. You don't have to give up building either. But, I was
35 when I started my kit. I'm 37 now (almost 3 . We're both
plenty young, and have time left if we're lucky. My kids were
just turning 5 and 7 when we finished, to repeat myself. They had
some trips to Florida in the Sundowner that WE will remember forever,
but THEY will probably only have the fuzziest recollection of. But
at 5 and 7, they're a lot more able to appreciate things. I would
not be in a hurry to build for at least 2 or 3 more years. Get the
whole gang out of diapers, and position everyone for the task. Also,
the oft-overlooked thing is that if you start stuffing away cash
right NOW, you'll pile up some good interest on it. I don't have
much in the bank these days....it took everything I had. But,
I remember the day my bank account, (yes, in low-interest but
very liquid state), passed through $100,000. That was a great day,
and the interest at even the low rate was piling up well. It
was comforting. I actually HOPED I wouldn't finish the plane
too soon, because the goal was to pay cash for everything, and
end up broke but flying. If I hit too early, I'd have to take
out a loan.....something I'm not one to agree with when buying
toys. It worked out so close that I probably only had a few
hundred bucks to my name on the day I flew. A pretty
precarious position to be in for a family....for sure, but now
we're on our slow way to recovery. (It gets even harder to
save AFTER you're flying)
None of this is meant to turn you off. I really think you've
got admirable motivation. It is definitely nice to see you
worrying about it a little. As long as it is a dream of both
you and your supportive wife, it will happen, eventually. It'll
be pretty cool if in the end the RV-10 fits your mission and
family, and you have the cash in hand so you don't have to flinch
the day you drop over $45K on your kit, and another $35K on your
engine....and then get on the phone to the avionics store.
Good luck, and if you ever want a phone call, just track me
down and we can talk by phone. Would be cool to get the
families together if you're ever in the area.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
mgeans(at)provide.net wrote:
| Quote: | All,
For those that may be interested and some who may be
lurking, attached is some observations/converastions that
my wife and I had based on all of the replies we recieved
from the Kits and Family thread.
It is a bit long, ~3 pages in Word, but an interesting read
for those wanting to add thier 2 cents (we describe our
buidling status scenerio in more detail and invite
suggestions) and those considering building to have some
helpful insight.
On another note:
I fished for a reply with a one liner on the original post
with no specific replies and will try once more. It may
have gotten scanned over.
I have an opportunity to switch careers in which my
employer will be overseas. If anyone has any expirience or
knows someone who does, in such matters and what to be wary
of or be sure you include in your "package" as an employee
I would like to share more info about the scenerio for your
feedback. It is a life altering opportunity and I am
checking all sorts of leads where I could make myself
knowledgeable before my visit with them.
For those who are considering a build, or know of someone
who is, I will be downloading all the replies that we
recieved from this original post into a Word document to
consolidate all the advice for our and anyone's future use.
Contact me directly if you would be interested in getting
this document.
Thanks to all for your help.
Matt Geans
Builder Wanna-be
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greytex
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Great write up by both of you, as always. (I think I would have teared up also Tim)
John Cram
40569 Emp
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
Bill, I expect EAA has some statistics on the number of projects completed vs. projects started. It is probably higher now that most projects are kits, but for years the number of completed projects was less than 25%. I personally know of more unfinished (and never likely to be finished) projects than I do active projects in my area, and we have a pretty active builder base in our local EAA chapter.
An interesting statistic is that fewer than 1 in 4 builders complete their projects, but many builders, perhaps 1 in 3, build a second or third airplane after completing their first one. The RV-10 is my third airplane project (and my first kit), having worked in steel tube (Pitts Special), wood (Pietenpol Air Camper) and now aluminum. I'm already thinking about what kind of plane I'll build next, after the -10 is finished. The logical choice would be something made of composites, but I really don't like working with fiberglass.
I think you are smart to consider all these factors before plunging into building. I find I can pretty consistently average 10 hours a week on an airplane project while working a full time job that requires some travel, keeping a newlywed wife happy (it helps that she likes to fly and is anxious to get the -10 finished so she can be more comfortable than she is in the back seat of my RV-4), and maintaining and flying the RV-4 and Pietenpol. More than 10 hours a week becomes somewhat of a strain.
You're very astute in your statement that "...once one enters the statistic of ‘kit unfinished – no current progress’, it is very difficult to get re-motivated to get back to ‘kit unfinished – work in progress’. " The best way to avoid that is to try to do SOMETHING on the project every day, even if it is just to look at the plans and figure out how you're going to do the next step, or plan your instrument panel, or dream up a paint scheme. Do something to keep the project in your mind and you will never have to come back to it and say "Now where was I? What was I doing when I last worked on this? Oh yeah, I had screwed up and put a big ding in the stabilizer skin". I think a lot of projects get abandoned because the builder made a mistake and lost interest, rather than going back and correcting the mistake. There are very few mistakes in building a plane that can't be fixed, and NO airplane is flying without a few screw-ups hidden in them somewhere. Just correct the mistake (either repair it or replace the damaged component) and move on. By the way, a copy of AC 43.13 is very handy to have when it comes time to repair something on your project. It is the BIBLE for how to repair aircraft structures.
Good luck,
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
#40610
Building Elevators now
[quote]
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
William Condon wrote: | Quote: | st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]-->
And, it has kept me from becoming a statistic in the group of ‘kit unfinished – no current progress’. I’m not certain, but I think that once one enters the statistic of ‘kit unfinished – no current progress’, it is very difficult to get re-motivated to get back to ‘kit unfinished – work in progress’. (my apologies to those who have made this recovery)
|
Hi William,
depending on your friends, I have one which already quit once, but I did involve him on my final stages of finishing my aircraft and took him up helping me on flighttesting. This motivated him, after 2 years not doing anything, to go back and continue, now he is flying my plane from time to time, to keep him motivated, next year he will finish!
Werner
do not archive
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
I got a motorhome just in case, but the desire to build did not subside
with the purchase.
The answer to your question is YES. Spars can and should be checked
with both Eddy Current and Ultrasonic to find hidden flaws. How often?
Probably not in our aircraft's lifetime. If it was a Harmon Rocket,
probably but not necessarily I would do it. If I was doing a
pre-purchase for a client on a Beech T-6 or T-34 then the cost would be
clearly a prudent expenditure. If I was doing one on the Yaks and
Nanchang warbirds I work on, ABSOLUTELY. What has been learned or
Revisited is that metal indeed has memory. It is going to fail after it
has lived its life. Corrosion only speeds the reality of the memory.
Hence the value of corrosion protection. Hence the value of NDT - Non
Destructive Testing.
At work, if we even slip and induce a simple scratch in the skin of our
birds, then Eddy Current is called in after blending away the scratch to
confirm no crack was induced from the initial damage or from the heat of
sanding (that's hand sanding not mechanical). (Automatic $1,000 cost to
the company and a letter to Engineering to ask permission to remediate
and test). Ultra-sound is used to determine that the final thickness is
still within 0.003" of the original 0.060". If you took that anal
approach to 0.025" then we would all be in a world of hurt. Alclad is
only 5% of 0.025" per side. Ever looked at the skin after dragging
across the dimpler.
We have one gal at work that bought the $125,000 equipment just to
provide such tasks to the outside GA market. These hired guns get paid
doctors wages to find the cancer before the aircraft becomes a
statistic.
(This recital is a result of reading your Word attachment).
There is probably no finer 4 passenger kit available today than the
RV-10. Simply following of the instruction documents and a modicum of
budget excess to allow for improvement in avionics and you can exceed
Certificated Aircraft alternatives on a much more prudent budget.
John Cox
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Kits/Family - A Review |
|
|
Tim, you had me at "I'm a sociable guy".
The too romantic part... I mean. Great post to the community.
John
Do not Archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
