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paulrod36(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:37 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Listers all:

  A couple of days ago, I watched a History Channel program on glues. After giving the history of glues, going back to Tut's coffin, they then covered modern adhesives (I guess the word glue is outmoded) and related that new commercial airliners have large percentages of adhesives bonding components. Interesting stuff. 3-M and the folks who make Loctite showed some pretty neat applications. They showed one demonstration in which galvanized, of about 18 gauge or so, broke before the adhesive could fail Even more interesting. They also referred to the fact that rivets and bolts concentrate the stresses at each point, while adhesive bonding spreads the load over the entire surface of the component. Now, I know that the Grumman AA-1, and, I believe, AA-2, use bonding to hold the wing sheets together. (I helped an A&P repair a crunched AA-1 wing, and was impressed.) So, here's a thought: While I'd be pretty chicken about bonding main spars, it might be interesting to try bonding some less stressed pieces. I think some research might be useful, and, of course, some opinions, as to the feasibility of adhesive bonding in ELSAs. I foresee the probable need for some means of applying even squeeze on curved parts, and, probably, some sort of very long pressure force on longer adhesive runs. Vacuum bags, anyone?
Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to get permanent bonding? What would be a good place on a Zenith to try bonding? (my first thought is the interior seams on ailerons, flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a 601 look cool with no rivets?
    LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!

Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
Doomed to wander forever in the canopy
[quote][b]


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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Titan is already using adhesive bonding AND rivets. The extra strength of the glue doesn't necessarliy mean that you can't also use rivets. Think about the way RV wing tanks are rivetted and sealed (glued) with ProSeal. Clecos line up the parts, then the rivets provide the clamping while the adhesive sets.

Ed Moody II
Do Not Archive


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gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Paul--
Our EAA chapter just had a presentation on some of the type of adhesives
you are asking about. The new breed are called METHYL METHACRYLATES.

Checkout www.extremeadhesives.com

and you can see some of the characteristics of this stuff. During the
presentation this guy applied some of this adhesive to a couple of strips of
.032 aluminum. No cleaning, no scuffing, just "glue and clamp. In about
twenty minutes we all tried to break the joint without success. The strips
were pretty well bent in all direction but the joint was solid.

George May
601XL 912s 6 hours
Quote:
From: <paulrod36(at)msn.com>
Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
To: "zenith-list" <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: New thread, sticky subject
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:37:11 -0600

Listers all:

A couple of days ago, I watched a History Channel program on glues.
After giving the history of glues, going back to Tut's coffin, they then
covered modern adhesives (I guess the word glue is outmoded) and related
that new commercial airliners have large percentages of adhesives bonding
components. Interesting stuff. 3-M and the folks who make Loctite showed
some pretty neat applications. They showed one demonstration in which
galvanized, of about 18 gauge or so, broke before the adhesive could fail.
Even more interesting. They also referred to the fact that rivets and bolts
concentrate the stresses at each point, while adhesive bonding spreads the
load over the entire surface of the component. Now, I know that the
Grumman AA-1, and, I believe, AA-2, use bonding to hold the wing sheets
together. (I helped an A&P repair a crunched AA-1 wing, and was impressed.)
So, here's a thought: While I'd be pretty chicken about bonding main
spars, it might be interesting to try bonding some less stressed pieces. I
think some research might be useful, and, of course, some opinions, as to
the feasibility of adhesive bonding in ELSAs. I foresee the probable need
for some means of applying even squeeze on curved parts, and, probably,
some sort of very long pressure force on longer adhesive runs. Vacuum bags,
anyone?
Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the
hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any of the
metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a specific
affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long to cure any of
the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to get permanent bonding?
What would be a good place on a Zenith to try bonding? (my first thought is
the interior seams on ailerons, flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a
601 look cool with no rivets?
LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!

Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
Doomed to wander forever in the canopy

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p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

I guess you are expecting someone to come along and pop your balloon
about substituting glue for rivets on a CH designed metal
airplane. I would not want you to be disappointed.

While there are indeed many advances in adhesives, there is still no
substitute for good engineering. The kits (and plans) we are
building are integrated designs which do not lend themselves to major
redesign of one part without analyzing the impact on the rest of the parts.

Even if the glued joints are stronger than rivets, there is the
possibility they will deteriorate very quickly when exposed to real
world conditions like heat, vibration, UV light, chemicals, air
pollution, and who knows what.

My suggestion to you is if you want to glue a plane together then
find one of the many wood plane designs or plans for the BD-1 or its brethren.

Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 11:37 AM 11/16/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the
hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any
of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a
specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long
to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to
get permanent bonding? What would be a good place on a Zenith to
try bonding? (my first thought is the interior seams on ailerons,
flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a 601 look cool with no rivets?


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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Test pilots... A step forward please... Smile

Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive.

paulrod36(at)msn.com wrote:
[quote] <?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Listers all:

A couple of days ago, I watched a History Channel program on glues. After giving the history of glues, going back to Tut's coffin, they then covered modern adhesives (I guess the word glue is outmoded) and related that new commercial airliners have large percentages of adhesives bonding components. Interesting stuff. 3-M and the folks who make Loctite showed some pretty neat applications. They showed one demonstration in which galvanized, of about 18 gauge or so, broke before the adhesive could fail Even more interesting. They also referred to the fact that rivets and bolts concentrate the stresses at each point, while adhesive bonding spreads the load over the entire surface of the component. Now, I know that the Grumman AA-1, and, I believe, AA-2, use bonding to hold the wing sheets together. (I helped an A&P repair a crunched AA-1 wing, and was impressed.) So, here's a thought: While I'd be pretty chicken about bonding main spars, it might be interesting to try bonding some less stressed pieces. I think some research might be useful, and, of course, some opinions, as to the feasibility of adhesive bonding in ELSAs. I foresee the probable need for some means of applying even squeeze on curved parts, and, probably, some sort of very long pressure force on longer adhesive runs. Vacuum bags, anyone?
Does anybody know what the operating [quote][b]


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ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:59 pm    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

On 11/16/06, Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Quote:
I guess you are expecting someone to come along and pop your balloon
about substituting glue for rivets on a CH designed metal
airplane. I would not want you to be disappointed.

Nor would I. Wink

One thing adhesives don't do very well is "peel". You don't pull a
piece of Scotch tape off a surface parallel to that surface; you peel
it off. Peel strengths in the *tens* of pounds per inch are not
uncommon for even the strongest adhesives. Once you get that crack
through the bondline, you can rip it open pretty easily. So stuff
that's bonded needs to be designed that way (usually having anti-peel
rivets at the end of the bond lines, etc.).

Another problem is ensuring bondline quality. You can't clamp too hard
or you starve your joint. You can't clamp too softly or you don't have
adequate clampup. You need to prepare the surface well or you end up
with voids in your bond from which failures may start. The Moni
motorglider used a metal bonded construction in the wings, and there
*were* catastrophic and fatal failures due to contamination. John
Monnett's newer designs don't use bonding any more. Smile

Finally, there's the pain in the a** that you have to deal with in
planning out the joint construction. (And again, something not
designed for bonding most likely has some gotcha in there where part A
cannot be glued before part B *and vice versa*.) You need to get every
friggin' thing lined up perfectly just right within the working time
of your adhesive (usually less than an hour). Think of applying a wing
skin that way; it's a pain. In volume production, what people would
prefer to do is apply heat curing adhesive tapes. These are stored in
the freezer and have an "out time" of a couple weeks to a month. You
assemble your parts with the tapes in between and then, when all is
ready, you bake the part at any of 250F (low temp) or 350F (high
temp). The glue melts, wets out the parts, then solidifies. You have
to make sure your oven is of adequate quality to give you a good heat
soak for *all* bondlines (even the hidden portions) for the required
time without overheating.

Hope this helps. Regards,

Ihab

--
Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA


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btucke73(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

There is an all aluminum sailplane design that bonds the aluminum skins to aluminum ribs. I cannot remember the name of the aircraft, but will put in an e-mail to the guy who built it. It is a pretty light plane, probably less than 700 gross. The wing has a ridiculous number of ribs - over 30, if memory serves. This technology has been there for years, but small plane designers are either still building the same old thing, the same old way (Cessna), or moving over to composites.

It is a bright and shiny day here in San Diego, and I have an aircraft that is ready to fly... Here goes nothing!

R/

Brandon Tucker

First flight today! -Maybe...

[quote][b]


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dredmoody(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Good luck and keep us posted.

Ed Moody II
Do Not Archive

---- Brandon Tucker <btucke73(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
First flight today! -Maybe...


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waj(at)quik.com
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Hello Brandon ,good luck on your test flight . Are you going to fly from Oceanside Ca . If so please contact me off list ,my daughter has a bussiness just next door and is interested in your flight . Thanks Wade

DO NOT ARCHIVE
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

Hello Team.
  Vacuum Bags are used in the marine industry, for laminated pannels both timber and composite. (America's Cup boats) I see no reason why the same method should not work with metal structures. A quick google may turn up some info, which I'll do tonight. I have been thinking about this method for my own project, for skinning the wings with ply!! ( I have no sheet metal skills)
Regards to all. Noel
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Right, Paul W, I'm "what-if-ing", and it'll probably be quite a while before we whip out the glue tube after inventorying parts. I'd like to see what happens after several years in hostile atmosphere, but it's fun to speculate, and maybe do a tillt research where it won't matter. A long time ago, a friend and I brainstormed on electric-setting glue. Just zap it with a few volts, and voila, a bond. We just haven't figured out what happens if you fly into a thunderstorm. (hey, didn't I have two wings before that lighting flash?)

Paul Rodriguez
Do not archive
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:51 pm    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

I don't know I think it would be kinda fun taking off in a glued together 601.... If you did somehow manage to get it airborne and got some altitude and speed up you could wait for the last piece to fall off then parachute back to earth ... providing you didn't glue your parachute together.....come to think of it........
If you dont want to see rivets buck them

Do not archive




In a message dated 11/16/2006 3:29:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net writes:
Quote:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: Paul Mulwitz <p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att.net>

Hi Paul,

I guess you are expecting someone to come along and pop your balloon
about substituting glue for rivets on a CH designed metal
airplane. I would not want you to be disappointed.

While there are indeed many advances in adhesives, there is still no
Substitute for good engineering. The kits (and plans) we are
building are integrated designs which do not lend themselves to major
redesign of one part without analyzing the impact on the rest of the parts.

Even if the glued joints are stronger than rivets, there is the
possibility they will deteriorate very quickly when exposed to real
world conditions like heat, vibration, UV light, chemicals, air
pollution, and who knows what.

My suggestion to you is if you want to glue a plane together then
find one of the many wood plane designs or plans for the BD-1 or its brethren.

Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 11:37 AM 11/16/2006, you wrote:
Quote:
Does anybody know what the operating life of a bond is, with the
hi-tech adhesives? Do we know anything about the flowability of any
of the metal-to-metal bonds? Is there anything out there that has a
specific affinity to aluminum? Do we have any knowledge of how long
to cure any of the H-T adhesives? How hard do we gotta squeeze to
get permanent bonding? What would be a good place on a Zenith to
try bonding? (my first thought is the interior seams on ailerons,
flaps, and wingtips.) Hhhmmmm---Wouldn't a 601 look cool with no rivets?



[quote][b]


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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:19 am    Post subject: New thread, sticky subject Reply with quote

keep in mind every time you fly commerical, all the wings are glued together with the same glue described earlier on the planes you are flying in.

Juan

--


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