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To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

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EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...

  

 Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler smoothly to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits today....

  

 Thanks in advance.

  

 Brian Skelly

Europa XS TriGear #A276

North Texas USA

You can see my build photos at:

http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

  [quote][b]

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Hi Brian,



Don't think there is a simple trick for this. 



Basically, apply the filler generously, and sand back later. Honestly, it was difficult, and i was happy to get professional help.  



Kind regards



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Hi Brian,

I just put it on thick, sometimes using my fingers... gloved of course. 

Let your large sanding block with 80 grit in diagonal motion one way, 

then back the other take it back down to the shape of the leading edge. 

Get with anyone local thats built a glass plane. I did with a local 

long EZ builder and his advice or on hands experience was priceless.

Regards,

Jeff

A258 Gold Rush (at) 55 hours

On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:14 PM, EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...

  

 Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler smoothly 

 to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits today....

  

 Thanks in advance.

  

 Brian Skelly

 Europa XS TriGear #A276

 North Texas USA

 You can see my build photos at:

 http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Jeff

agree it's best to get all the filler on at the first pass but then sand 

to a template of the L Edge, it needs to be accurate to a couple of thou 

or you may well have a nasty stall. It's very easy to knock off the 

sharp LE radius even with unbacked abrasive paper. The position of the 

center of the radius is critical too. Believe me, the stall can be quite 

benign but it can also be vicious.

You need the CAD coordinates of the section and Turbocad or similar. 

Autocad does it of course but that can be Xpensive.

I don't have the CAD any more but someone has. Kingsley old mate?

Graham



JEFF ROBERTS wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Brian,

 I just put it on thick, sometimes using my fingers... gloved of 

 course. Let your large sanding block with 80 grit in diagonal motion 

 one way, then back the other take it back down to the shape of the 

 leading edge. Get with anyone local thats built a glass plane. I did 

 with a local long EZ builder and his advice or on hands experience was 

 priceless.

 Regards,

 Jeff

 A258 Gold Rush (at) 55 hours

 On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:14 PM, EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com wrote:



     To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...

      

     Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler

     smoothly to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits

     today....

      

     Thanks in advance.

      

     Brian Skelly

     Europa XS TriGear #A276

     North Texas USA

     You can see my build photos at:

     http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

     *



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     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

     *

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 Builder's Bookstore 

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 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or extra filler.  They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply ceramic tile cement to walls).  After it cures they use a ‘long board’ to sand it down.  The ‘long board’ is not a fixed size.  It can be 2” x 24” , 4” x 48” or any other size, depending on the surface area to be sanded.  Most of them are made up in the shop using a piece of planking with a couple of hand made handles screwed to it and the sand paper glued or clamped to that.  The long board rasps off the high areas, but leaves the valleys clearly identified by the serrated ‘stripes’ of resin/filler.  On the next pass you only need apply the mix to areas that remain ‘striped’.  It saves work because the actual surface area to be sanded is reduced to the high points or ‘lands’ left by the serrated trowel rather than a raised patch left by a smooth trowel.  It also saves on expensive resin. You get an additional bonus using the technique in that the serrations also leave a greater surface area, and irregular surface, for the next coat to bind with or key to.  Hope this helps.  I spent plenty of time working on racing sailboats in the US and UK so I know the technique works with resins from both sides of ‘the pond’.  Hope this helps.  

   

Regards,  

   

Jack Hilditch  

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JEFF ROBERTS

 Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:49 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...   

  

   

Hi Brian,

 I just put it on thick, sometimes using my fingers... gloved of course. Let your large sanding block with 80 grit in diagonal motion one way, then back the other take it back down to the shape of the leading edge. Get with anyone local thats built a glass plane. I did with a local long EZ builder and his advice or on hands experience was priceless.

 Regards,

 Jeff

 A258 Gold Rush (at) 55 hours

 

 

 On Nov 19, 2006, at 4:14 PM, EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com wrote:  

<?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger>To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger> 

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger>Would anyone like to share a helpful hint on applying filler smoothly to a leading edge? The Anti Servo Tab is giving me fits today....

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger> 

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger>Thanks in advance.

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?x-tad-bigger> 

 <?/x-tad-bigger><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>Brian Skelly

 <?/smaller><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>Europa XS TriGear #A276

 <?/smaller><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>North Texas USA

 <?/smaller><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>You can see my build photos at:

 <?/smaller><?/fontfamily><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

 <?/smaller><?/fontfamily>

 <?fontfamily><?param Courier New><?smaller>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>www.aeroelectric.com<?/color>

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>www.buildersbooks.com<?/color>

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>www.kitlog.com<?/color>

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>www.homebuilthelp.com<?/color>

 

 

 

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>http://www.matronics.com/contribution<?/color>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 <?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<?/color>

 

 

 

   <?/smaller><?/fontfamily>  



 

   <?pre><?b><?font size=2 color=000000" face="courier * The Builder's Bookstore <?a   * Aeroware Enterprises <?a HomebuiltHELP <?a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/navigator?europa-list">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<?/a> ===========

<?/b><?/font><?/pre><?/body><?/html>

       [quote][b]

EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

This is a very interesting technique Jack.  I am assuming that a flat trowel is used on the second pass to fill the valleys?

  

 Brian Skelly

Europa XS TriGear #A276

North Texas USA

You can see my build photos at:

http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS

  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Jack

This does work but it is vital to be certain that the resin/microballoon 

mix is identical otherwise you will get hard and soft stripes, I got 

that tea shirt once! It would be good with Superfil.

Graham



Jack Hilditch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a 

 fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or 

 extra filler. They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using 

 a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply 

 ceramic tile cement to walls). After it cures they use a ‘long board’ 

 to sand it down. The ‘long board’ is not a fixed size. It can be 2” x 

 24” , 4” x 48” or any other size, depending on the surface area to be 

 sanded. Most of them are made up in the shop using a piece of planking 

 with a couple of hand made handles screwed to it and the sand paper 

 glued or clamped to that. The long board rasps off the high areas, but 

 leaves the valleys clearly identified by the serrated ‘stripes’ of 

 resin/filler. On the next pass you only need apply the mix to areas 

 that remain ‘striped’. It saves work because the actual surface area 

 to be sanded is reduced to the high points or ‘lands’ left by the 

 serrated trowel rather than a raised patch left by a smooth trowel. It 

 also saves on expensive resin. You get an additional bonus using the 

 technique in that the serrations also leave a greater surface area, 

 and irregular surface, for the next coat to bind with or key to. Hope 

 this helps. I spent plenty of time working on racing sailboats in the 

 US and UK so I know the technique works with resins from both sides of 

 ‘the pond’. Hope this helps.



 Regards,



 Jack Hilditch



*

*

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Jack,



As I visualize this technique, I take it that the strokes of the 

serrated screed are chordwise (rather than spanwise) in order to 

facilitate the maintaining of the airfoil.



Please confirm.



Fred

A194



 	  Quote: 	
		   Jack Hilditch wrote:



> Composite racing sailboat builders use a technique that produces a 

> fair surface, without bumps or valleys, while minimizing weight or 

> extra filler. They screed the filler/resin mix onto the surface using 

> a small-toothed, serrated plastic trowel (the same kind used to apply 

> ceramic tile cement to walls).

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Brian,  

   

If the low area is still quite visible (greater than 3” radius is a good rule of thumb to start with), with well defined stripes, I would suggest continuing with the serrated trowel.  Typically, a flat trowel is only used for the final skim coat.  You might want to try a finer toothed trowel, as the depression is filled with succeeding coats, but the striping (or lack thereof) is really what tells the tale.  

   

Regards,  

   

Jack  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of EuropaXSA276(at)aol.com

 Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:19 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me...   

  

     

This is a very interesting technique Jack.  I am assuming that a flat trowel is used on the second pass to fill the valleys?  

    

   

    

Brian Skelly

 Europa XS TriGear #A276

 North Texas USA

 You can see my build photos at:

 http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS  

   	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Fred,



The serration direction is immaterial as it will eventually be faired in by

a thin, flat, surfacing coat. This resin/filler application technique is

used to visually identify low areas during initial filling and sanding

steps. As I mentioned, it also provide a better keying surface for

succeeding coats. Using a 'long board', rather than a block sander, for

initial fairing helps to prevent the creation of additional low areas

through spot sanding. It spans existing low spots by resting on higher

surfaces around the depression thereby bringing the low spot into fair.



Regards,



Jack



--

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Graham,



Agreed. All builders would be well advised to watch the mix consistency

carefully so as to prevent differing moduli of elasticity and (possible)

future problems during any lamination process. However, the step currently

under discussion is non-structural and really only about fairing reasonably

small areas. Filler depth should be quite thin (1/8" or less) so, while

sanding a catalyst-rich filler mix may be a bit more time consuming, it

really shouldn't be too bad.  If the areas requiring filler are large or

deep, other considerations may apply.



For all lamination processes it would be prudent to:

1.) Use a standard pump system to manage resin to catalyst ratio. 

2.) Mix the two thoroughly before adding fillers. 

3.) Measure any additives carefully. 

4.) Thoroughly mix the additives into the resin matrix.

5.) Conduct all resin application operations within temperature and humidity

conditions specified by the resin manufacturer. 



Assuming those steps are followed, the fairing layers should be nearly

identical in hardness.  The only time I ever saw hardness become a factor

was when the mixing process did not adhere to the proper ratio between resin

and catalyst or if the additive was sloppily blended into resin matrix.



Regards,



Jack



--

robneils(at)qwest.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

I have near perfect, "suberb" glider wings.  Lots of time and a unique tool, a snow picket, made it possible.  

   

Snow pickets are extruded aluminum "T" bars either 2 or 3 feet in length.  They are pounded into snow to protect snow and ice climbers so they're light-weight and extremely sturdy because climbers trust their life to them.  Snow pickets are also perfectly straight, making them the perfect sanding block.  I glued ever finer sanding paper to the bottoms.  I used the three-foot T-bar mostly so I'd get not waves.  When I got done there were no imperfections.  I checked the wings often in the dark using a flashlight or a laser beam to determine the "light-rise" was consistent.  As you lift the light source up over an edge, the light-to-shadow line will show all imperfections.  The laser lifted over an edge will give the final inspection.  

   

It takes lots of time and patience.  

   

Watch the "spindrift" (let's keep the snow picket comfortable with a compatible vocabulary because you've got to make friends with this tool because you'll be using it a lot) as you work the snow picket.  You'll see where the low points are by the absence of "spindrift" as the snow picket slides back and forth going from front to back of the wing sweeping at a 45 degree angle.  Move your grip from edge to middle to other edge on the snow fence as you sand.  This will allow the power of random numbers "float" the snow picket making the surface superbly smooth. Hours of concentration watching the “spindrift” was the most challenging task I had in the entire build.  I took it as a challenge to mental discipline to keep full, alert attention without lapses for hour upon hour.  It’s hard to believe but once you get clear into it it becomes very satisfying to see such a suburb finish produced by hand.  

   

I had trouble not seeking perfection on my build.  I sometimes put a "moustache on the Mona Lisa" by trying to make the "excellent" into "perfect."  Perfection is nearly always demonic.  I finally settled on "superb" and operationally defined it as every station on N128HW has to be within 1/2 of a centimeter of where it theoretically belonged or I'd rebuild or modify.  But when it came to the wing surface I went all out:  The three-foot snow picket and lots of elbow-grease will give you a finish that is beyond what you could even hope for...damn near perfection.  

   

Snow pickets can be bought at   

   

http://store.thebackcountry.net/cart/product.php?productid=18174  

   

for $18 or $20 US for the two or three footer respectively.  

   

   

--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Jack

Boat people tend to use polyester materials we use epoxy so it isn't 

catalyst it's reagent. Any variation in hardener /resin ratio will be 

disastrous, it won't cure properly and unreacted resin or hardener will 

prevent adhesion of the next layer, paint or whatever.

Graham



Jack Hilditch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Graham,



Agreed. A Filler depth should be quite thin (1/8" or less) so, while

sanding a catalyst-rich filler mix 

Jack

NevEyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Hi Jack / All,

 Filling with a ''comb'' works well on large surfaces like boats [ I was  doing that with Polyester resin / Phenolic spheres on 25 '+ boats back in  the ' 70's] where the weight is not that critical, but of no real use on our  planes.

 If the Expancell / Epoxy is mixed runny enough to be combed on, it will be  too heavy, and much harder to sand.The Expancell mix should be almost like bread  dough to put on.... a real bugger to put on.... and impossible to get on  smoothly / thin. As mentioned before on here, fill too proud ONCE, it will sand  like dense balsa.... if you have to go back for a second fill you may end up  with different densities... which as Graham mentioned, will sand away at  different rates. If you managed to comb it on, you will end up with stripes, if  you have to fill an area, you will get a ''tide mark''.

 Those of you useing Superfil may get it on OK, because that is runnier /  heavier / more difficult to sand than correctly mixed Expancell / Epoxy.[ Why oh  why do people insist on useing that ?]

     Other problems [ with Epoxy] is that all the ''valleys''  that did not get sanded during the profiling, will have to be scuff sanded, to  remove the top surface [in preparation for adhesion] before a second fill  can be applied,probably have to scrape it all with an Xacto blade, rather  negates the point of only sanding the '' hills''?  

 No short cuts in this world I'm afraid ?

 Cheers,

 Nev.

  [quote][b]

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Grahame,



Years ago, polyester resin was the matrix of choice when wet lay-ups were

the typical building method. However, 'poly' was way too soft. Hulls would

flex considerably, thereby ruining the airfoil shape of the sails as the

rigging sagged.  'Poly' was also prone to wicking salt water into the

laminate structure causing structural delamination and blisters on the hulls

that sometimes reached the size of dinner plates.  Those blisters were very

expensive to repair and not a great favorite of anyone charged with keeping

the hulls looking good. 'Poly' also ex-gasifies under the paint causing

bubbles to be trapped lifting the paint membrane. Hulls were/are commonly

treated with an epoxy undercoat before painting, even if the topcoat was/is

Imron or Awlgrip.



Epoxies such as the West System

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/composite.htm 



and the SP lines 

http://www3.gurit.com/pdfs/adhesive/PSG_Epoxy_Adhesive.pdf



have been more commonly used for building over the past 25 years.  They

produce a better and more durable laminate structure.  They are used almost

exclusively when constructing a matrix with carbon.  In fact, I can't

remember when I last used 'poly' on a boat.



The catalytic component in any resin mix has always been colloquially

referred to as the 'catalyst' or 'hardener' in boat building yards.  Mea

culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  I'm old enough to have gotten into the

habit of using the word 'catalyst' when referring to any hardener.  Be that

as it may, the process remains the same.  



1.) Mix the resin thoroughly before blending in the filler material.  

2.) Once the filler is thoroughly incorporated into the (reacting) resin, it

has a pot life determined by several factors.  

3.) Screed the resin/filler mix onto the surface to be faired before the

resin/filler mix hardens in the pot.  



As to the mix ratio being critical, I couldn't agree more. That is why I

suggested using a calibrated metering pump system supplied by the resin

manufacturer.



(Our discussion might be over-engineering a simple fairing job. I was just

lurking on the list and thought I'd share a tip that made our lives a bit

easier when sanding in various boatyards over the years.) 



Regards,



Jack   

-

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Jack

I quite agree, I just thought I'd share my experience too, I did it on 

my Long EZ 20 years ago. (the stripes) unfortunately Superfil wasn't 

around then and I still have hard and soft stripes to try and hide, 

thankfully only on one wing underside. At least the stripes are chordwise.

Incidentally, spanwise waviness which can be noticed won't hurt laminar 

flow but any more than .002 inch per 2 inches cordwise (which won't 

show) will. I use a springy flexible spline that follows the curve of 

the section and just knocks of the high areas, not a rigid spline. Don't 

believe in rigid splines.

Graham



Jack Hilditch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  (Our discussion might be over-engineering a simple fairing job. I was just

lurking on the list and thought I'd share a tip that made our lives a bit

easier when sanding in various boatyards over the years.) 



Regards,



Jack

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Nev

I have another trick which works for me. I mix in colloidal silica. Try 

this, mix up the Expancell then add a little Cabosil..Then you can add 

another pile of Expancell to get back to the same consistency. The 

Cabosil makes it spread easier. It does NOT affect the sandability.

Then I spread it on over a pair of strimmer lines, remove the strimmer 

lines and after 15 minutes careful spread again to flatten the tramlines 

and its done. Controled thickness, and thick enough to not need any more 

filling. The Cabosil seems to lubricate the Expancell so it spreads easy.

Probably the reason my stripes were hard and soft is that the sanded 

surfaces absorbed resin from the next ;layer of filler and went hard. 

Superfil doesn't do that for some reason, maybe it has talc in it?

Graham



NevEyre(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Jack / All,



 If the Expancell / Epoxy is mixed runny enough to be combed on, it 

 will be too heavy, and much harder to sand.The Expancell mix should be 

 almost like bread dough to put on.... a real bugger to put on.... and 

 impossible to get on smoothly / thin. As mentioned before on here, 

 fill too proud ONCE, it will sand like dense balsa.... if you have to 

 go back for a second fill you may end up with different densities... 

 which as Graham mentioned, will sand away at different rates. If you 

 managed to comb it on, you will end up with stripes, if you have to 

 fill an area, you will get a ''tide mark''.



 Nev.



*

*

kenatkinson(at)ktdinterne
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: To Those That Have Sanded Before Me... :)

Where do I obtain some Cabosil?



  Thanks in anticipation.



       Ken.

---

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