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[CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Folks why are we assuming Jim departed with no fuel? Is it because there  was only 2 oz of fuel in the carb bowl? Or that the tanks were empty? or no fuel  in the lines? Well, first off I think it is sad that some people on this list  would even try and assume what they would do 200 feet off the deck over trees  with an engine out. If you have never had it happen STFU you would most likely  have to change yourself afterwards and you most likely have never been that  scared in your life. Now as for the missing fuel .... He might have only used 1  tank due to the fact it was a short flight the other could have been bone dry at  take off, He might have developed a fuel leak after the pumps and it  sprayed fuel in such a way as to be detected after the crash thus emptying  the system faster than he could land. Bottom line is we assume he took off dry  and that is an insult to someone that can't speak out for themselves. Why not  send a our thoughts and prayers are with your family during this holiday season  NOT Jim Pellien crash speculation.

  

 Jeff

 Do not archive  

  [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:29 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I don't believe any offense was intended to Jim.  As in most things, "there but for fortune go you or I."  I believe most people's comments are directed to the fear we all have of inadvertant fuel exhaustion caused either by lack of fuel or some failure of the fuel system.  Just read some of the other threads on this site and you'll see what I mean.



It is infortunate that many of the lessons we've learned about flying have come at the expense of tragedy to another.  Jim's unfortunate demise has us all thinking about fuel management and fuel system design..... perhaps the lessons learned from these discussions will save the life of another....let us be thankful for that.



Tim Juhl

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Uh huh ... whatever.

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  I read the report very carefully.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

 	  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Folks why are we assuming Jim departed with no fuel? ... Why not  send a our thoughts and prayers are with your family during this holiday season  NOT Jim Pellien crash speculation. 	




I wish you'd have taken your own advice and not included all that speculation of your own while chiding others for doing the same.  



I know the exact layout of the fuel delivery in Jim's plane. It was identical to my own. I've looked at the layout many times and thought through many scenarios. It's a very sound design.



So what happened? Uhhhh ... the plane ran out of fuel! No fuel smell, no evidence of fuel spill, tanks appeared dry, very little fuel anywhere. Don't know much more beyond that. I don't care to speculate ... nor should you.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I don't know what your problem is David X. I hope it is concern over the loss of a fellow pilot, especially one that is flying an aircraft like your own. But statements as you have made in know way help the situation. As I said, I read the report and I even quoted the passage that brought up my question.



I asked this question specifically because I understand the 601XL fuel system and the fact that the report was showing virtually no fuel in the aircraft or the area surrounding the crash seems incredibly difficult for me to believe. I asked the question in the hope that someone might be able to give me a scenario where it could happen.



That said, the reason for this forum is for the builders and flyers of Zenith's aircraft to learn from others. Usually that learning comes from others experience and sometimes that learning comes from others mistakes. There is something to learn from everything written about this and every accident. (That is the reason the NTSB does the investigations in the first place.) Often the things to be learned aren't directly from the specific issue in question but things that are brought up in conversation that was started because of an accident, mistake or experience.



You will note that I have in no way mentioned any of the "Eye-Witness" details. They have historically shown to be of very little use and even the NTSB only gives them any weight if there is solid physical evidence to back them up.



If there is something that can be learned from this accident with the information already released by the NTSB or from conversation about that information it might well cause another accident not to happen.



We do know somethings.



1. An aircraft like the one we are building and/or flying crashed.

2. It seems likely that the crash was due to fuel starvation and the starvation was unique in that it looks like the aircraft didn't even have what we would consider an amount of unusable fuel. This is either the case or the NTSB prelim report was very poorly written.



If you are unwilling to learn from the past you are condemned to repeat it.



 	  David X wrote: 	
		  Uh huh ... whatever.

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  I read the report very carefully.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  I don't know what your problem is David X. 	




I think you're reading too much into my reply, the same as you did when reading into the NTSB report of two ounces recovered. Lighten up.



 Here's an idea ... since you're not going to be flying Jim's plane, maybe you could fill your own bone-dry tank with a known quantity of fuel and then drain as much as you possible can (likely what the NTSB did ... but I don't want to speculate). How much is left inside the tank? Is it really 1/2 gallon unusable? Are you planning to try this mid-flight? Be sure to share with us what you learn from your experience so we all can learn too.   



I guess I'm turning into one of those pricks I complain about on this forum. Maybe now I understand how they turn into pricks ... it's just sheer frustration with people who are somehow genetically programmed to argue ... they just can’t help it. 



It’s like the time this guy was adamant that 3 gallons of paint didn’t weigh anything at all. I re-published technical research from the Dupont web site just to see how deeply this guy was genetically programmed to argue. He must have poured over the reams of research material and cherry-picked the items that would prove himself right, and the rest of us wrong. I have to say he won the argument ... but somehow the laws of the universe dictate that 3 gallons of paint indeed has mass. The need to be right was pathological and the state of denial was unbelievable. Is this the right state of mind to be a pilot? 



I say "genetically programmed", because otherwise it would just be a plain old garden variety mental defect ... and it’s not nice to tell people they are mentally defective. At least I know I am.  



Relax, Gig ... oh, and we're all looking forward to that field experiment of yours.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Actually, I have noticed many cases where the NTSB quotes accident 

witnesses, but it seems to nearly always quote statements from "Pilot 

rated" witnesses.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive



At 10:06 AM 11/25/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  You will note that I have in no way mentioned any of the 

"Eye-Witness" details. They have historically shown to be of very 

little use and even the NTSB only gives them any weight if there is 

solid physical evidence to back them up.


	


--

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

This has really nothing to do with the crash but I would like to point out that anyone that puts those 45 cent a foot pieces of junk fuel lines on their airplane is just asking for trouble IMHO I don't understand why anyone would run them and I firmly believe that we are going to start seeing a lot of problems from these lines. I have run 3/8 aluminum lines from the tank to the pumps. I think that building your airplane to the highest of standards is just as important as your preflight.

    

  

 --

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

 	  David X wrote: 	
		  

I guess I'm turning into one of those pricks 	




Yeah I guess you are.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I've used those 45 cents a foot pieces of junk in  an ultralight for 500 hours and almost 400 hours in a homebuilt  experimental.  No problems.   My friend, who has over 36,000  hours flying (he's been a crop duster for 40 years) has built three PA-12 copies  and has also used those pieces of junk fuel lines with no problems (his current  PA-12 has 900 hours on it).  Just because you don't like them doesn't mean  they don't work.

  

 Randy

 601xl/Jabiru 3300

 [quote]   ---

afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

Rubber gas line with hose clamps kinda cheap.

    

  

 --

tpellien

Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: [CH601XL] Re: Jim Pellien lost in 601XL crash

I am not sure if anyone will read my reply so late after the last entry.  But I thought you all should here from someone who flew with Jim and knew him personally.



For anyone who would doubt his ability to check the tanks before flight, you should know that he dutifully checked every aspect of his plane before flight.  His family and friends are all aware that he was steadfast on the pre-flight checks.  He would constantly check fuel level as well as water in the tank.  



If Jim did not check the tanks and the tanks really were empty, you should know that the flight time before crashing would not have been enough for him to even get to the nearest airport with gas service.  Perhaps that would be an issue for the man in Jim's employ who last flew the plane.



What I believe to be true is that Jim checked his plane as he normally did, knew he had enough fuel and took off for a leisurly flight.  Something happened mid-air that caused a loss of fuel and he crashed.  



Jim's family and friends have and will always stand behind the man they knew him to be.  For anyone to suppose to know what he may or may not have done on that day is absurd and insulting to his life and his family.



If you want to learn a lesson here is my recommendation, 



1.  Never leave someone elses plane with not enough fuel to get to an airport that offers gas service.



2.  Find out how an engine, any engine car or plane can leave as little as 2 ounces and be running 1 minute prior to crashing.

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