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Tri gear or Tail dragger
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...we all know is that taildragger configuration over all can handle 

rougher ground...


	


It is a common perception but no, we don't all "know" that.  Many 

tricycle gear airplanes have rather lightweight nose wheels, the 

Kitfox included, but there are plenty of very rugged nose wheels on 

airplanes designed for rough-field use.  They're on a different 

scale, but the Lockheed C-130 and the AVIOCAR C-212 come to mind, 

both of which are tricycle gear airplanes specifically designed for 

rough fields.



That said, Phil Laker likes to tell the story of his trip to Alaska 

with a flock of other Kitfoxes.  His nose-wheeled Vixen landed on 

every unimproved strip the others did with no problems.



Mike G.

N728KF

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Ron sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I've had the nosewheel fall of the Avid while warming the 

motor....Found the taildraggers envelope for punishment to be a 

little smaller than expected on my Kitfox.


	


I think a quick search of the Kitfox archives will produce a plethora 

of tail wheel spring failures.  Nose wheel and tail wheel failures do 

not indicate an inherent superiority to one design or the other, 

simply that the original structure was not up to the intended task.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I do feel a little silly when I taxi the tricycle Avid, and cool in 

the TD Kitfox.


	


This comes back to what I said about having nothing to prove.  I 

think it's cool to just do the pilot-thang but then, I've never been 

an authority on what's "cool".  



Mike G.

N728KF

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rick(at)rickdaniels.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Over the last many days (perhaps too many) several comments have been made

about the ability of a taildragger to go places where a tricycle cannot.  I

wish someone would describe such a place without using a situation of pilot

error to endorse or condemn a particular configuration. I have no experience

in a "Kitfox" but I am in the process of acquiring a "Kitfox" so the

description of such a place (as it applies to Kitfox only) would be very

valuable to me. Please do not respond with situations of pilot error. 

Doesn't it really boil down to pilot competence?



do not archive

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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Not trying to get in the middle of anything but I feel one important 

difference between the tail and nose wheel application is their maingear 

location in reference to CG, noses being aft tend to straighten out a crab 

on landing and tails being forward tend to amplify it lending itself more 

vulnerable to a ground loop. With that said I fly a tailwheel, don't ask me 

why, I just like them. I leave you all to your preferences and reasons as 

well but let's not let our preferences blind us to the unique tendencies of 

each, either good or bad, I think what is most important is that we know our 

planes, thier limitations and how to fly them no matter where the wheels are 

(even if they are in the garage for you float fliers) : )

Lloyd

*Happiness depends on happenings but joy depends on Christ*

---

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Michael,



Anytime when I am asked about airplane choices, my first answer is a 

question - "What will it's mission be?"



I agree that failures of the tailwheel spring has largely outnumbered the 

failures of the nose gear.  Without getting into the relative numbers of 

tailwheel vs. nose wheel Kitfoxes and statictics, I am aware personally of a 

tailwheel failure that bent the lower tubing on the rudder requiring the 

removel of the fabric, straightening of the tubing and recovering.  I 

suspect that is about the most you would expect of this type of failure. 

Actually the airplane remained airworthy and was flyable.  Getting out and 

home from wherever it would happen would be possible with a simple skid made 

from what is available or better yet a spare spring in the misc. bag.



On the other hand I doubt a nose wheel failure would be as simple and 

undoubtedly if it happened in a remote area, I suspect a remote fix would be 

necessary or maybe a trailering out if possible and a much more intensive 

repair depending on extent of damage which could range from a prop 

replacement to cowl, engine, engine mount or fuselage fixes.  Also consider 

engine out sutuations where the landing site might be far from ideal.



I remember this post from Darin a bit ago and it pretty much expains what I 

am trying to say.



"The reason I flew my Model III as a tailwheel and will fly my Series 7 in 

tailwheel configuration was confirmed by an incident  my buddy had about a 

month ago while landing at a realatively benign strip in the Idaho 

backcountry...he was in his 182.



In short, he went into this strip (which he had been into numerous times 

before) to camp with some friends and do some fishing.  On Sunday they got 

up to fly home and decided to walk the strip once before starting the 

takeoff roll.  The reason for the walk was to pickout all major gopher 

holes.  They made a thourough inspection and marked all major holes then 

began their taxi to the downwind side of the strip.  During this taxi, a 

hole that was not seen in the previous inspection swallowed his nose wheel 

and he had a pretty major prop strike!  His 182 is still in the A&P's hanger 

and is going through a complete teardown (he is consequently considering a 

full rebuild to 0-time the engine) and while the insurance is covering a 

major part of it, it is still a major cost to him in dollars and lost flying 

time."



I believe amid the opinions, there are some things that could come close to 

being considered facts.  And the relative difficulty one can get themsleves 

into with that third wheel is real.  Scuffed wingtips or a bent rudder is 

minor compared...



Lowell



---

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

I had a tailspring break, and was lucky enough to have had a spare 

spring at home. Since that incident, I bought the 3-leaf spring from 

John McBean, which incorporates 2 main leaves, and a helper. I'm not 

sure what the odds are against both of these 2 main leaves breaking at 

the same time, but I'll bet it's in the millions-to-one. I'd rather 

have the "spare" spring bolted in place and preventing me from having 

to deal with the possible damage that could be caused from the one and 

only main spring breaking, than to just carry a spare leaf in the misc. 

bag...it is still weight, so why not put it to use if you're going to 

carry it? Granted, its weight is better suited in the bag, than on the 

tail, but what's an extra 1-1/2 lbs or so, gonna matter, even if it is 

back there?



Lynn



On Friday, November 24, 2006, at 04:15  PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Michael,


	


   (snip)



 	  Quote: 	
		    Getting out and home from wherever it would happen would be possible 

 with a simple skid made from what is available or better yet a spare 

 spring in the misc. bag.


	


    (snip)



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lowell

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Installation of VERY LARGE tundra tires is one thing that I know of that can 

be done with a taildragger but is limited on a nose wheel, does not make it 

better, just different.

Lloyd

*Happiness depends on happenings but joy depends on Christ*

---

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Nose wheel airplanes should have a degree or so of toe in to help correct

any sideways slip and the conventional gear plane should have a degree or so

of toe out for the same reason.  Tire loss to the change of toe in both

aircraft should be minimal... Not often we take out pride and joys for a

hour ride without leaving the ground.



Noel

Do not archive

[quote] --

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: Tri gear or Tail dragger

Lowell sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  During this taxi, a hole that was not seen in the previous 

inspection swallowed his nose wheel and he had a pretty major prop 

strike!


	


Yes, I remember that story, Lowell.  It isn't hard to imagine a hole 

swallowing the main gear of a tail wheeled Kitfox, either.  That kind 

of situation could cause the fuselage to drop enough to cause a prop 

strike.  If the speed was high enough, it could easily cause the nose 

to hit or cause the plane to pivot around the trapped wheel.



Each design has advantages and disadvantages and there are certainly 

scenarios that would incapacitate any airplane.  The story you 

related underscores the notion that even when we do everything right, 

things can still go wrong.



Mike G.

N728KF

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