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Skis for Kitfox's

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

I'd like to get peoples opinions on skis for a Model IV. I know Skystar 

offered them, but not (I don't think) in the wheel-penetration type 

that I am interested in. We don't get enough snow around here (Lower 

Michigan) to warrant full skis...that is, non-penetration skis. But if 

we get our normal amount, my strip will be snowed over, while most of 

the paved strips will be cleared of snow, and I wouldn't be able to go 

there....well, you get the idea. I'd like to hear some dialogue about 

what is involved in flying with skis, problems encountered, etc. I am 

thinking of building my own skis of the wheel-penetration type, or 

perhaps buying if a pair is available. I need a project, so building is 

preferred.



Lynn

Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Michel, are you here?



Lynn, Michel built some that he uses in Norway.  Looks

like they work well for him too.  Oh, and he has a

Jabber engine too.



Kurt S.



--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'd like to get peoples opinions on skis for a Model

 IV. I know Skystar 

 offered them, but not (I don't think) in the

 wheel-penetration type 

 that I am interested in. We don't get enough snow

 around here (Lower 

 Michigan) to warrant full skis...that is,

 non-penetration skis. But if 

 we get our normal amount, my strip will be snowed

 over, while most of 

 the paved strips will be cleared of snow, and I

 wouldn't be able to go 

 there....well, you get the idea. I'd like to hear

 some dialogue about 

 what is involved in flying with skis, problems

 encountered, etc. I am 

 thinking of building my own skis of the

 wheel-penetration type, or 

 perhaps buying if a pair is available. I need a

 project, so building is 

 preferred.

 

 Lynn

 Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:44 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Lynn, you might consider just not using skis, but instead, put on bigger

balloon tires.  They'll ride over some pretty deep snow with no problem.

It's a lot simpler.  Now if you had the snow down there that we have up here

it would be a different story.

Deke



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Thanks, Kurt...yes I'm in touch with Michel. I have his drawing, and 

some nice pictures of his installation. I also got some picture off 

Sportflight.com, which were helpful. Now I just have to decide whether 

or not to do it, and how much bother they are in use. I've been getting 

some input from local fliers, including my flight instructor, and some 

of the stories they tell is making me have second thoughts about "going 

skiing." Things like running across snowmobile tracks, hidden 

obstructions, etc. I know that if I stay on known grass strips, or 

paved runways, I *should* be ok, but I've seen these snowmobile guys 

tear up all over the place, leaving their ruts in their wake. I'm 

trying to get some input as to the feasibility of the whole 

matter....I'd hate to go two or three months without flying.

Lynn

On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 01:09  AM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>

 Michel, are you here?

 Lynn, Michel built some that he uses in Norway.  Looks

 like they work well for him too.  Oh, and he has a

 Jabber engine too.

 Kurt S.

 --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

> I'd like to get peoples opinions on skis for a Model

> IV. I know Skystar

> offered them, but not (I don't think) in the

> wheel-penetration type

> that I am interested in. We don't get enough snow

> around here (Lower

> Michigan) to warrant full skis...that is,

> non-penetration skis. But if

> we get our normal amount, my strip will be snowed

> over, while most of

> the paved strips will be cleared of snow, and I

> wouldn't be able to go

> there....well, you get the idea. I'd like to hear

> some dialogue about

> what is involved in flying with skis, problems

> encountered, etc. I am

> thinking of building my own skis of the

> wheel-penetration type, or

> perhaps buying if a pair is available. I need a

> project, so building is

> preferred.

>

> Lynn

> Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

That's certainly good advice, Deke, but what if I decided to come up 

your way? I've actually got the 20x6.50x8's that came with my kit, so 

maybe that's an option. Do you suppose that size would work?



That option would not fulfill my need for a project, though...hmmm. : )



Lynn



On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 07:44  AM, Fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn, you might consider just not using skis, but instead, put on 

 bigger

 balloon tires.  They'll ride over some pretty deep snow with no 

 problem.

 It's a lot simpler.  Now if you had the snow down there that we have 

 up here

 it would be a different story.

 Deke



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Skis for Kitfox's

Lynn sez:  	  Quote: 	
		  That option would not fulfill my need for a project, though...hmmm. : ) 

	




OK Lynn..... I could not resist the opener.



Want to consider a model 1 restoration? (just for fun) 



A ski option you may want to consider 

- Full Lotus floats? .... thought that doesn't provide an answer for pavement ....I suppose it might be more forgiving in snow mobile tracks.

do not archive

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Lynn, I ran my model 2 for a couple winters on the same tires (20s) that you

have and for up to six inches it was no problem.  Heavy wet stuff may be a

bit different.  If you decide to come up here and the snow is deep I'll plow

it for you!  Actually, the skis are nice.  The last two years I had my 2 I

ran it on skis that I made for it and I could go just about anywhere with

them, including paved runways.  Up here, most airstrips have a place for

landing on skis, usually paralleling the active so there are lots of options

on skis, including the frozen lakes.  Another thing about skis is that the

airplane tends to track straighter with less rudder input, and on a 2,

that's a big deal.  Skis do make it a pain moving in and out of the hangar,

but there are ways around that.  If just plan on hanging around "down south"

the fat tires will probably work for the most part.  A good rule is to

always drag the landing area first to look for anything that may cause your

day to go bad.

Unfortunately, I let the skis go with the airplane when I sold it and now

the airplane is down in Mexico somewhere.  I don't know what happened to the

skis.  Should have kept 'em.  They were one of my best productions.

Deke

Mikado Michigan

Subject: Re: Skis for Kitfox's

 	  Quote: 	

 That's certainly good advice, Deke, but what if I decided to come up

 your way? I've actually got the 20x6.50x8's that came with my kit, so

 maybe that's an option. Do you suppose that size would work?

 That option would not fulfill my need for a project, though...hmmm. : )

 Lynn

 On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 07:44  AM, Fox5flyer wrote:

 > 

 >

 > Lynn, you might consider just not using skis, but instead, put on

 > bigger

 > balloon tires.  They'll ride over some pretty deep snow with no

 > problem.

 > It's a lot simpler.  Now if you had the snow down there that we have

 > up here

 > it would be a different story.

 > Deke

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Stay on good solid ice ( preferably get a ground report ) or give snow a few

days to settle then you shouldn't have a problem with snowmobile tracks.

Timber jack tracks are another thing!  They can be two or three feet deep

even in settled snow.



A number of years ago a small bush firm had to transport the body of a

deceased fellow along with supplies to a remote island outport in the

winter.  The plane they were using, a DHC Beaver or Norseman,  was pretty

well loaded so they had to tie the casket crossways through the two open

doors in the back of the plane and fly the short hop that way.  



The pilot got in touch with some one in the community by radio well before

the flight and told him which frozen bog he would landing on.  He requested

that they put a line of marker evergreen saplings down where he was supposed

to land so he wouldn't end up in a drift or bog hole.  The guys in that

community being excellent woodsmen had for many years marked weak ice  and

holes with saplings.  The orders got mixed up and the boys put the saplings

on just about every obstruction around, including the  straight ridge of a

particularly long large drift. 

You got it the plane landed on or more correctly in the drift... Spun like a

top... The Skipper and his box went flying again and landed feet first into

a big rock, where it broke open spewing the dearly departed into or onto the

frozen mire..  All this happened right in front of the bereaved family who

could only pick up the skipper and stuff him into what was left of his box

and bury him.



The moral of the story:  When flying skis make sure the report from the

ground is accurate.



Please :  Do not archive this post It is intended only to promote safety in

Kitfox flying.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

On Dec 7, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   some of the stories they tell is making me have second thoughts about 

 "going skiing."


	


I still haven't landed on skis on unprepared terrain, Lynn. That is, if 

you don't count the snow covered shoulders of my homeplace asphalt 

runway, just for practice. Lots of stuff can hide under the snow. But 

we have winter fly-ins where we land on frozen lakes there where there 

is already people on the ground and we know it's safe.



Deke has a point that big balloon tyres will get you on much snow 

covered surface. But snow, if a bit loose, can be tricky as it's an 

enormous drag on the tyres/skis. That makes the plane feel like tipping 

over when landing. The nice thing with the skis, then, is that it has 

retaining wires that allow the plane to tip not more than 5 degrees 

nose down, from level.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

I may try the big tires first, before committing to the skis....thanks, 

Michel.

Lynn

On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 01:08  PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Dec 7, 2006, at 2:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> some of the stories they tell is making me have second thoughts about 

> "going skiing."

 I still haven't landed on skis on unprepared terrain, Lynn. That is, 

 if you don't count the snow covered shoulders of my homeplace asphalt 

 runway, just for practice. Lots of stuff can hide under the snow. But 

 we have winter fly-ins where we land on frozen lakes there where there 

 is already people on the ground and we know it's safe.

 Deke has a point that big balloon tyres will get you on much snow 

 covered surface. But snow, if a bit loose, can be tricky as it's an 

 enormous drag on the tyres/skis. That makes the plane feel like 

 tipping over when landing. The nice thing with the skis, then, is that 

 it has retaining wires that allow the plane to tip not more than 5 

 degrees nose down, from level.

 Cheers,

 Michel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Deke-

I'll let you know if/when to fire up the plow. : ) Thanks for the 

offer. Gotta fine-tune the cabin heater, and maybe try the larger 

tires, then try some tests around here first. The hangar-moving is the 

reason that I'd rather go with either large tires or the wheel skis. 

And recall that my hangar is a dirt floor, so a dolly for moving the 

plane is probably out of the question.

Lynn

do not archive

On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 10:47  AM, Fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Lynn, I ran my model 2 for a couple winters on the same tires (20s) 

 that you

 have and for up to six inches it was no problem.  Heavy wet stuff may 

 be a

 bit different.  If you decide to come up here and the snow is deep 

 I'll plow

 it for you!  Actually, the skis are nice.  The last two years I had my 

 2 I

 ran it on skis that I made for it and I could go just about anywhere 

 with

 them, including paved runways.  Up here, most airstrips have a place 

 for

 landing on skis, usually paralleling the active so there are lots of 

 options

 on skis, including the frozen lakes.  Another thing about skis is that 

 the

 airplane tends to track straighter with less rudder input, and on a 2,

 that's a big deal.  Skis do make it a pain moving in and out of the 

 hangar,

 but there are ways around that.  If just plan on hanging around "down 

 south"

 the fat tires will probably work for the most part.  A good rule is to

 always drag the landing area first to look for anything that may cause 

 your

 day to go bad.

 Unfortunately, I let the skis go with the airplane when I sold it and 

 now

 the airplane is down in Mexico somewhere.  I don't know what happened 

 to the

 skis.  Should have kept 'em.  They were one of my best productions.

 Deke

 Mikado Michigan

 Subject: Re: Skis for Kitfox's

> 

>

> That's certainly good advice, Deke, but what if I decided to come up

> your way? I've actually got the 20x6.50x8's that came with my kit, so

> maybe that's an option. Do you suppose that size would work?

>

> That option would not fulfill my need for a project, though...hmmm. : 

> )

>

> Lynn

>

> On Thursday, December 7, 2006, at 07:44  AM, Fox5flyer wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Lynn, you might consider just not using skis, but instead, put on

>> bigger

>> balloon tires.  They'll ride over some pretty deep snow with no

>> problem.

>> It's a lot simpler.  Now if you had the snow down there that we have

>> up here

>> it would be a different story.

>> Deke

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Lynn,



I've put almost 300 flying hours on a couple different sets of Avid's wheel 

penetration skis and have to say ski flying is a blast, so don't shortchange 

yourself by not doing it.  And the wheel penetration ski works great.  I 

would never want to go back to a straight ski.



I sent you a short video showing the wheel penetration skis in operation on 

my early Avid Flyer in a separate e-mail.  Or for anyone else wanting to see 

it just click onto the kitfox lazair videos at 

http://www.lazair.com/kitfox/movies/ and choose the video titled 

avicAskis.mpg.  (or if you want to go direct, just click on 

http://www.lazair.com/kitfox/movies/avicAskis.mpg, but then you'll miss all 

the other great videos on that site).



Ski flying with wheel skis can only be compared to having a seaplane with 

amphibious capability - the options of taking off at the airport and then 

landing in snow (or water in the case of the seaplane) provides one with 

significantly enhanced experiences.  Knowing you can now go pretty much 

anywhere you want is a real rush.  It opens up so many opportunites to visit 

places that were previously off limits to you.  And from a safety 

perspective, it significantly increases your places to land in the case of 

an emergency.  The fact that you won't have the hassle of dollying your 

aircraft from the hangar to a snow runway, or that you won't have to worry 

about either too much or too little snow (knowing you can always operate off 

the asphalt) makes the wheel ski a pretty good thing to have for winter 

flying enjoyment.  You will also find snow operations easier than pavement, 

as the aircraft tracks straighter with the skis, and runway lengths or 

direction are generally less limited.  When you do a good snow landing it is 

much like flying floats, you won't even know you are on the surface until 

you either hit a small bump or see a spray coming off the undercarriage. 

I'm not sure that flying can get any better than that...



The downside?  Well, there are definitely some issues with ski flying.  I 

personally believe ski flying has a tremendous possibility of messing up 

your airplane.  Remember, most aircraft get wrecked off airport.  And in the 

case of skis, because you can go pretty much anywhere, you tend to do so. 

And to make matters worse, the place you are going to land on is most likely 

covered with a nice smooth layer of snow.  It will probably look gorgeous 

from the air.  Smooth and bump free.  But hidden underneath all that smooth 

snow can be boulders, ridges, fence wire, ice chunks, etc, etc.   Adding 

insult to injury is the fact that you can't see very well as you are truly 

experiencing the effect of being snow blinded.  Flying low over a snow 

covered area before you land looking for obstructions is always advised, but 

many times won't really show you anything except a lot of white.  Snow 

drifts, ridges, and shallow drop offs are hazards that are some of the 

hardest to see, many times being impossible to distinguish from the flat 

areas.  The 7,000 acre lake I live on here in Wisconsin makes for a great 

winter runway (that's where the video was shot).  But because we have a lot 

of snowmobilers making ruts, and ice fisherman drilling holes (with nice 

hard elevated rings of ice around the opening) all over the place, you have 

to be careful.  I'll admit to hitting many an ice fishing holes, and landing 

cross ways on hardened and rough snowmobile trails, in my hours of ski 

flying.  That isn't exactly the fun part I described earlier.  It will make 

you wonder how much of that abuse your skis and/or your plane will handle 

before breaking something. But if you are careful, and get those days when 

you are the only one out in the fresh powder, it will make all other winter 

snow related activities boring by comparison.



Here's a cute little wheel ski story I have to tell;  One year I was lazier 

than usual and left my wheel penetration skis on my Avid until mid July.  I 

thought it was kind of funny to do it, and what the heck, the airplane 

operated just the same.  But I decided that I had one last thing to do 

before removing them.....  So I loaded up my sheepskin lined leather winter 

parka, along with my heaviest mittens and fur hat.  Then I flew the little 

Avid to a small airport I had never been to before.  Once there I pulled up 

at the fuel pump to top off my fuel (all of about 4 gallons as I recall). 

When the line boy came out he was totally confused by seeing skis on my 

plane.  He asked where I had come from?  I told him the mountains north of 

the Yukon territories.  Trying to keep from laughing, I told him I was glad 

all the snow and ice had finally melted off the plane, and then went on and 

on about how nice the weather was here in Wisconsin.  Intrigued, he started 

asking a lot of questions about range, speed, carrying capacity, etc of my 

little white Avid Flyer.  Then he wanted to know how it is that I could sit 

that long in that small cabin?  Somehow or other I muttered out answers 

without laughing.  Finally we went into the FBO so I could pay for the fuel, 

and the next thing I know he has all of his coworkers coming out to see 

"this neat little plane that flew here from somewhere near the north pole!". 

Trying to avoid a lot of embarassment, or possibly being strung up by the 

line boy, I told them all the truth, and then apologized for stringing them 

along.  They were a great bunch as they all got a good laugh from it. 

Flying home that day I knew it would be a day I'd remember for a long time.



So there's proof wheel penetration skis aren't just for winter anymore<GRIN>



If you live where there's snow, go out and enjoy some ski flying. You'll 

never regret it.  If you don't get any snow, well you might want to consider 

moving where there is...



Paul Seehafer

Central Wisconsin



ps - attached is a picture of my early Avid on wheel skis with the large 

skinny tires.  My later Avid uses the standard Avid/Kitfox type tundra tire. 

Both tires worked well, with the advantage going to the narrow and tall tire 

due to providing more ski area when in deep snow.

---

Avid_on_wheel_skis_at_home_-_small_files_size.JPG

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: Skis for Kitfox's

Ok, that was enough to convince me...I'm building a set of skis...wheel 

skis...for my fox. I just watched Paul's avicAskis.mpg video, and I'm a 

believer. I probably won't get airborne as quick as Paul, given my 

Jabiru engine and cruise prop, but I'll get up there eventually. : )



Lynn



On Friday, December 8, 2006, at 11:16  AM, Paul Seehafer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,



 I've put almost 300 flying hours on a couple different sets of Avid's 

 wheel penetration skis and have to say ski flying is a blast, so don't 

 shortchange yourself by not doing it.  And the wheel penetration ski 

 works great.  I would never want to go back to a straight ski.



 I sent you a short video showing the wheel penetration skis in 

 operation on my early Avid Flyer in a separate e-mail.  Or for anyone 

 else wanting to see it just click onto the kitfox lazair videos at 

 http://www.lazair.com/kitfox/movies/ and choose the video titled 

 avicAskis.mpg.  (or if you want to go direct, just click on 

 http://www.lazair.com/kitfox/movies/avicAskis.mpg, but then you'll 

 miss all the other great videos on that site).

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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