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dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Guys,

     Bear with me on this spark plug  issue.  I'm starting to get excited about this and it reminds me of the old  "KITFOXSAFE" days (beat it to death and come up with all the facts).  The  bits and pieces are coming in and I'm sure there is a simple answer to at least,  my confusion.  I've sent emails to CPS and NGK asking about the  aviation/non aviation BR8ES plugs.  Also asking about the delivered pre-gap  settings of .018" versus .035".  In my opinion, the shorter ground and  .018" gap is a more important issue.  I want some of  them......

     So far, there have been part  numbers given for solid tip??????  They are for auto use only????? Rotax  centers deliver solid tip/.018" gap?????? CPS delivers the same as you get in  the auto store (.035" gap)?????

  

 Still Confused but will get straight,

 Don Smythe

 Do Not Archive

  

    [quote][b]

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Don 

 The gap comes anywhere from .017 to .035 none have  ever been at .018

  

 John Perry

  

 [quote]   ---

aerocontrols(at)clearwave
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

John,

Don't know whre you have been buying your plugs, but we just went into the 

stock room and checked about 50 of them ... all came in between ..017 and 

.019 (these are the ones that come from Rotax)

The ones that came from the automotive wholesaler came in close to .035 and 

have longer grounding tabs..



The automotove solid core plugs ARE different than the ones that are 

purchased for aircraft.  I have both types on my desk as I type.



Bob Robertson

---

aerocontrols(at)clearwave
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Don....

O.K.  there are solid core automotove plugs and there are aviation solid 

core plugs.  The auto plugs have a larger gap (.035+-)

I can't comment on what other service centers are doing for their plugs 

sales.  I know we purchased a case of automotive solid core plugs

because they wer a dollar or so less expensive (my cost) that the ones we 

were buying from Rotax..  I was dissapointed because ,firstly, they were 

marked "not for aircraft use" and secondly ,the gap and grounding tab were 

different.  We returned all but 30 of these (a back up in case we got short 

stocked on the ones we were getting from Rotax).

I would not be suprised that some Rotax dealers are actually selling the 

automotive plug.

I'm pretty sure that Lockwood, LEAF and South Misissippi all handle the 

plugs we get from Rotax.

As they come from Austria, our plugs come in bulk styrafoam flats (not 

indicidual boxes).

How much difference are there between the two type of plugs in terms of 

performance.  Iff'n you change the plugs out at 25 hour intervals, I doubt 

you would see any difference.

If you have a change out schedule of 50 hours I'm sure there would be a 

difference.  We have lots of customers who use a 75 or 100 hour change out 

schedule (that's a lot longer than the manuals state, but the plugs seem to 

be going the distance).

Hope this un-muddies the water a bit.



regards



Bob Robertson

Light Engine Services Ltd.

Rotax Service Center

Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.

St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8

Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164

Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)

www.rtx-av-engines.ca

www.aerocontrols.net

---

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Bob then what is the NGK Stock number for the Aircraft BR8ES and B8ES I 

would like to know so i can then compare some more and see if i change my 

mind again lol .

Thanks

John Perry



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

At 04:43 PM 12/7/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Don't know whre you have been buying your plugs, but we just went into the

stock room and checked about 50 of them ... all came in between ..017 and

.019 (these are the ones that come from Rotax)


	


Hi Bob! What are you selling? Are these NGK BR8ES and BRES? Is there a 

source for similarly configured Iridium plugs? (I don't know why I want to 

use these, I guess I thought they'd last longer. Maybe I'm wasting money.)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Hey guys, I'm not trying to inhibit this thread and  I know we're all learning a lot about spark plugs and that's a good thing, but  these plugs aren't really all that much of a problem.  Just buy the correct  heat range available at the local auto parts house and like Don says, stake the  cap on.  Alternatively, use a drop of locktite to hold it on there.   As for the ground terminal being too long, it's very simple to just gently  tap it to the correct gap, then use a file or dremel to trim it back to the  correct length, being sure to avoid nicking the electrode.  Be sure that  the end is flat and square with sharp right angles.  It only takes a  few minutes per plug.

 Additionally, I remember that it was said that in  the winter time people close the gap to the minimum to help with easier  starts.  I'm speaking of the 582s here, not the 912 which may be a bit  different, but I doubt it.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

I've never had a problem  starting a cold two stroke engine.  Even when I lived in Labrador the two  stroke engines usually started with one or two pulls on the cord.  Keeping  them going now that is a challenge!

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

aerocontrols(at)clearwave
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

John,

There is no NJK stock number for the plug that Rotax sells.  These are 

configured for Rotax in Austria by NGK....I am not sure, but I think they 

also congigure the plugs for a couple of other 2-stroke manufacturers as 

well.

The Rotax part number is 897-055..... .

If I can fugure out my new digital camera software (off topic, but....why 

cant manufacturers come up with software programs that those of us over 55 

can understand).. I will post pictures of both types of plugs on the list.



regards

Bob Robertson

Light Engine Services Ltd.

Rotax Service Center

Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.

St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8

Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164

Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)

www.rtx-av-engines.ca

www.aerocontrols.net

---

aerocontrols(at)clearwave
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Good Morning Guy,



We only handle the plugs that come to us from Rotax..  These are NGK B8ES 

and BR8ES.

Rotax does not list an irridium plug.  I am not sure if you can get a solid 

core irriduim.

My feeling on standard vs. irriduim plugs is that you can replace your BR8ES 

plugs every 50 hours and still come out

ahead (fiscally).



Just my two cents



Bob Robertson

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

At 07:46 AM 12/8/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My feeling on standard vs. irriduim plugs is that you can replace your BR8ES

plugs every 50 hours and still come out

ahead (fiscally).


	


Thanks Bob.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Remember, if you trim plugs this way to make sure that

there are no metal filings left in the plug recesses

to be introduced into the engine.  Same when using

spark plug cleaning machines.  Those abbrasives can

really tear up a cylinder.



Kurt S  S-5



--- Fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)i-star.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hey guys, I'm not trying to inhibit this thread and

 I know we're all learning a lot about spark plugs

 and that's a good thing, but these plugs aren't

 really all that much of a problem.  Just buy the

 correct heat range available at the local auto parts

 house and like Don says, stake the cap on. 

 Alternatively, use a drop of locktite to hold it on

 there.  As for the ground terminal being too long,

 it's very simple to just gently tap it to the

 correct gap, then use a file or dremel to trim it

 back to the correct length, being sure to avoid

 nicking the electrode.  Be sure that the end is flat

 and square with sharp right angles.  It only takes a

 few minutes per plug.

 Additionally, I remember that it was said that in

 the winter time people close the gap to the minimum

 to help with easier starts.  I'm speaking of the

 582s here, not the 912 which may be a bit different,

 but I doubt it.

 Deke

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

Kurt-

I'm surprised to hear/read you mention spark plug cleaning 

machines...I've heard for the last 10 years or so, not to use a 

sandblasting machine for cleaning spark plugs. Are there other cleaning 

machines that do not use sand? The theory goes that the sand blasts the 

ceramic/porcelain...whatever...insulator and this is bad for the plug. 

Maybe somebody else closer to the subject can verify this info.



Lynn

On Friday, December 8, 2006, at 04:48  PM, kurt schrader wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>



 Remember, if you trim plugs this way to make sure that

 there are no metal filings left in the plug recesses

 to be introduced into the engine.  Same when using

 spark plug cleaning machines.  Those abbrasives can

 really tear up a cylinder.



 Kurt S  S-5



 --- Fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)i-star.com> wrote:



> Hey guys, I'm not trying to inhibit this thread and

> I know we're all learning a lot about spark plugs

> and that's a good thing, but these plugs aren't

> really all that much of a problem.  Just buy the

> correct heat range available at the local auto parts

> house and like Don says, stake the cap on.

> Alternatively, use a drop of locktite to hold it on

> there.  As for the ground terminal being too long,

> it's very simple to just gently tap it to the

> correct gap, then use a file or dremel to trim it

> back to the correct length, being sure to avoid

> nicking the electrode.  Be sure that the end is flat

> and square with sharp right angles.  It only takes a

> few minutes per plug.

> Additionally, I remember that it was said that in

> the winter time people close the gap to the minimum

> to help with easier starts.  I'm speaking of the

> 582s here, not the 912 which may be a bit different,

> but I doubt it.

> Deke

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

I do not know why anyone would clean a plug when they are available new for 

less than 2 dollars each. Yes this is the NGK Stock # 3863 Stock # 3961 

BR8ES, B8ES plugs . Solid cap plugs .



John Perry

---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs

You are right Lynn,



I got rid of my plug cleaning machine many years ago. 

It didn't use sand, but any abrasive can produce

damage if not thouroughly cleaned out.  (Mine

supposedly didn't harm the ceramic.  If I remember

correctly, it used ceramic chips)



If you are buying aviation plugs at around $10 each

and 2 per cyl, cleaning them may still make economic

sense.



And if you modify them a Deke suggests, you need to

carefully clean out any debris, just like the blasting

material, as well.



So, the need to clean plugs can still come up and that

is why I made the suggestion.



Kurt S.



--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kurt-

 I'm surprised to hear/read you mention spark plug

 cleaning 

 machines...I've heard for the last 10 years or so,

 not to use a 

 sandblasting machine for cleaning spark plugs. Are

 there other cleaning 

 machines that do not use sand? The theory goes that

 the sand blasts the 

 ceramic/porcelain...whatever...insulator and this is

 bad for the plug. 

 Maybe somebody else closer to the subject can verify

 this info.

 

 Lynn


	




 

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.  Try it now.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Certainly if you use the sandblasting machine you will want to pressure test

the plug before installing it.  I've seen spark plugs cleaned with an awl...

Carefully pick out the debris.  Definitely not recommended but common enough

to mention.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Some of those aviation plugs are the dear side of $50.00/plug.  After

cleaning, by whatever method,  they really should be blown out with air (

100psi or more ) and then pressure tested.  It's amazing how some perfect

looking plugs arc all over the place only under pressure.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

I just read the LightSpeed installation manual for the electronic ignition 

going into the Lancair IV.  It recommends never using a blaster type 

cleaner, but rather a propane torch to burn off any liquid deposits and a 

"sharp steel" instrument to scrape off any hard deposits.



For what it's worth.



Lowell

---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Good point Noel.  I once experienced a bad ignition miss while under

full power takeoff that straightened out when I reduced power to

cruise rpm.  I spent many hours going through the ignition and fuel

system trying to track down the problem finding nothing amiss so I

decided to change plugs to see what happens.  Problem solved.  I've

got one of those hand held spark plug blasters that does a nice job

cleaning up a plug, but what they can also do is crack the insulator

that causes exactly what I was experiencing.  I no longer use if for

my airplane plugs.  If they get sooted up or look suspect I just

replace them with new ones.  $10 for four plugs gives good peace of

mind.

Deke

[quote]<noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



Certainly if you use the sandblasting machine you will want to

pressure test

the plug before installing it.  I've seen spark plugs cleaned with an

awl...

Carefully pick out the debris.  Definitely not recommended but common

enough

to mention.



Noel



> --

aerocontrols(at)clearwave
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: Spark Plugs

Lynn,

Thats the word we get from Rotax as well.  The ceramic becomes pitted and 

can crack due to uneven stresses when heated to 1000+ degreesF.

That's the theory I was given.



regards



---

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