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Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Well, maybe an outstanding idea if user fees get past us.  

  

 Since the list is a little slow lately, I thought  I'd share a germ of an idea with all you budding  entrepreneurs who know how to write software and such.

  

 How about a PC program that tracks your progress via cell phone position  technology and updates your pre-laid-in flight plan automatically as you  travel.  It could even call you to check if you are overdue, off  course or whatever and either confirm your safety or call the authorities to  come and dig your mangy corpse out of a smoking hole ;o).

  

 Any comments or takers   

 GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 833hrs, Silicon Valley,  CA) 



  [quote][b]

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Or, another take on it is to be able to dial  into a number, then input the tail number or flight number.  The  program would send to your cell phone screen the departure time, current  position, speed, altitude, ETA.....and so on.  A map would be way way cool,  but one step at a time.  I haven't a clue how to pull this information  together but it's obviously out there since FlightAware and the websites for  each airline pulls the information down from the system.  

  

 Where's Dan Checkoway....calling Dan  Checkoway!!!!

  

 Chuck Jensen 



  

   

 

 --

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Vanremog(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Well, maybe an outstanding idea if user fees get past us. 

  

 Since the list is a little slow lately, I thought I'd share a germ of 

 an idea with all you budding entrepreneurs who know how to write 

 software and such.

  

 How about a PC program that tracks your progress via cell phone 

 position technology and updates your pre-laid-in flight plan 

 automatically as you travel.  It could even call you to check if you 

 are overdue, off course or whatever and either confirm your safety or 

 call the authorities to come and dig your mangy corpse out of a 

 smoking hole ;o).

  

 Any comments or takers

  

 GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 833hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)


	


Almost everyone reports poor to no performance with the new digital 

'cell' phones when you're at altitude.



On the other hand, the ham radio guys have a system that takes gps data 

& hands it, along with ID info the operator desires,  to a radio that 

can use 'repeaters' & can transmit data (3 meter band??). The operator 

sets the update timing (seconds, minutes, hours, etc). The nearest 

repeater on the ground hands off the data to a web server that puts a 

moving dot on a map.



Open source ELT that works. I'm not sure how complete the coverage is at 

this time, but the technology is so cheap that an organization like EAA 

should be able to motivate members to become hams & add 'nodes' 

(repeater stations) until coverage is total. Unlike cell phone towers, 

one repeater could serve a huge area if it's getting signals from 

several thousand feet in the air.



I'm not a ham operator, but this system almost pushed me into getting my 

license.



I know there are a lot of hams on this list; someone jump in here.



Charlie

bill(at)vondane.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Sounds very interesting...  I will look into it and  see what can be done...

  

 -Bill VonDane

 www.rv8a.com

  

  

  

 

 

 ---

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

I saw a presentation at a local flying club a year or two ago by CASARA (Civil

Air Search and Rescue Association) in which they described using a GPS and ham

radio system to track their aircraft during a search.



---



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

DO NOT ARCHIVE

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

We do a similar thing in our application for the waste management industry.  We update about every 2 minutes and show position on a map or a web map.  The problem is we do use cell technology (data side) to send the updates.  Cell signal doesn’t work very well at altitude.  Might need another medium to send the signals.  At altitude however the signal can sure travel further.  

   

Tim  

           

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vanremog(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 12:27 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Great Idea that's time has come?  

  

     

Well, maybe an outstanding idea if user fees get past us.    

    

   

    

Since the list is a little slow lately, I thought I'd share a germ of an idea with all you budding entrepreneurs who know how to write software and such.  

    

   

    

How about a PC program that tracks your progress via cell phone position technology and updates your pre-laid-in flight plan automatically as you travel.  It could even call you to check if you are overdue, off course or whatever and either confirm your safety or call the authorities to come and dig your mangy corpse out of a smoking hole ;o).  

    

   

    

Any comments or takers     

   

    

GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 833hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)   

  

   	  Quote: 	
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        [quote][b]

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

I am a Ham operator, but I don't have any idea how to do this.  A local Ham

club if somebody belongs would be a great place to get answers.

Tim

KC7UZK



[quote] --

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

On 9:46 2007-01-13 "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We do a similar thing in our application for the waste management

 industry. We update about every 2 minutes and show position on a map

 or a web map. The problem is we do use cell technology (data side) to

 send the updates. Cell signal doesn't work very well at altitude.


	


For what it's worth, in Canada cell phones work fine up to at least 5000'

AGL.  At least, that's as high as i've used one and had no problems with

signal strength or quality.  I'm not sure if there's something different

about the way the cell networks are set up in the US, maybe there is.



Oh, and I think the ham radio setup people are referring to is "packet

radio", which sends "packets" of data over the ham network.  I had a

co-worker who used it along with a portable GPS to track the family van via

a webpage.  Really neat technology.



-Rob

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Hi, Charlie.  Your reference is to APRS, operating typically on the 2m

band, using a beacon mode known as Mic-E.  I've read alot about it but

never done it.  Coverage is far from nationwide at this time, but high

in metro areas, and the tracking info it provides is open data for all

to view on the web.  AIrcraft equipment requirement would be just a

NMEA GPS cable to a 2m handie talkie with a Mic-E modem to key the

beacon at appropriate intervals.  Rubber duck antenna would suffice, I

think.  Google "APRS" for more than you ever wanted to know, except,

it would seem, just how to put it into full operation.  Kudo's to

whomever can take us pilots the rest of the way there.  ADS-B without

the fees or the Feds 

-Bill / Stormy

On 1/13/07, Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Vanremog(at)aol.com wrote:

 > Well, maybe an outstanding idea if user fees get past us.

 >

 > Since the list is a little slow lately, I thought I'd share a germ of

 > an idea with all you budding entrepreneurs who know how to write

 > software and such.

 >

 > How about a PC program that tracks your progress via cell phone

 > position technology and updates your pre-laid-in flight plan

 > automatically as you travel.  It could even call you to check if you

 > are overdue, off course or whatever and either confirm your safety or

 > call the authorities to come and dig your mangy corpse out of a

 > smoking hole ;o).

 >

 > Any comments or takers

 >

 > GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 833hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)

 Almost everyone reports poor to no performance with the new digital

 'cell' phones when you're at altitude.

 On the other hand, the ham radio guys have a system that takes gps data

 & hands it, along with ID info the operator desires,  to a radio that

 can use 'repeaters' & can transmit data (3 meter band??). The operator

 sets the update timing (seconds, minutes, hours, etc). The nearest

 repeater on the ground hands off the data to a web server that puts a

 moving dot on a map.

 Open source ELT that works. I'm not sure how complete the coverage is at

 this time, but the technology is so cheap that an organization like EAA

 should be able to motivate members to become hams & add 'nodes'

 (repeater stations) until coverage is total. Unlike cell phone towers,

 one repeater could serve a huge area if it's getting signals from

 several thousand feet in the air.

 I'm not a ham operator, but this system almost pushed me into getting my

 license.

 I know there are a lot of hams on this list; someone jump in here.

 Charlie

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Cell antennas here in the USA seem to be angled down at the near

horizon, with very sharp patterns in the E-plane.  Coverage sucks

above about 2500 AGL the times I've tried to use the phone aloft.  I

used to think they were somehow kicking me out for being aero mobile,

but I think it's just poor sig strength and maybe a picket-fence type

of flutter that makes the equipment drop the call.

-Stormy

On 1/13/07, Rob Prior <rv7(at)b4.ca> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 9:46 2007-01-13 "Tim Bryan" <n616tb(at)btsapps.com> wrote:

 > We do a similar thing in our application for the waste management

 > industry. We update about every 2 minutes and show position on a map

 > or a web map. The problem is we do use cell technology (data side) to

 > send the updates. Cell signal doesn't work very well at altitude.

 For what it's worth, in Canada cell phones work fine up to at least 5000'

 AGL.  At least, that's as high as i've used one and had no problems with

 signal strength or quality.  I'm not sure if there's something different

 about the way the cell networks are set up in the US, maybe there is.

 Oh, and I think the ham radio setup people are referring to is "packet

 radio", which sends "packets" of data over the ham network.  I had a

 co-worker who used it along with a portable GPS to track the family van via

 a webpage.  Really neat technology.

 -Rob

Bob Perkinson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Ham radio operators were using digital packet repeaters back in the 80"s.

There was and might still be a network (SEDAN) (South East Digital Amateur's

Network) set up where on 2m you could communicate with another operator in

south FL. from middle TN.  Takes very little to setup a node.  I had several

set up in the Gallatin, TN area on different 2m frequencies that cross

linked with each other through an old 8088 computer. The Technology is

there.  As far as a cell signal the antenna are more than likely designed to

radiate horizontally.



Bob Perkinson

Hendersonville, TN.

RV9 N658RP Reserved

If nothing changes

Nothing changes





--

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

I have heard that when you are at altitude, you hit so many cell towers at once that you confuse the system, causing it to lock you out.  Not sure if this is a fact, though.

  

 I used to have a packet BBS (bulletin board system) back in the early 90's too, but haven't kept up with what's going on lately.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

 Ham call K9WEK

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 1/13/2007 7:08:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobperk(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Perkinson" <bobperk(at)bellsouth.net>



Ham radio operators were using digital packet repeaters back in the 80"s.

There was and might still be a network (SEDAN) (South East Digital Amateur's

Network) set up where on 2m you could communicate with another operator in

south FL. from middle TN.  Takes very little to setup a node.  I had several

set up in the Gallatin, TN area on different 2m frequencies that cross

linked with each other through an old 8088 computer. The Technology is

there.  As far as a cell signal the antenna are more than likely designed to

radiate horizontally.



Bob Perkinson

Hendersonville, TN.

RV9 N658RP Reserved

If nothing changes

Nothing changes 	


 

  [quote][b]

luckymacy(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

There's a Sprint cell tower ON my airfield and I get the full 6 bars of strength when on the ground yet I've NEVER noticed the cell phone showing ready for use when flying.  It's almost like it's smart enough to ignore my phone when I go faster than I would be in a car...I don't know what's really going on but I've just never got a signal while actually flying.

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Hopperdhh(at)aol.com 

   I have heard that when you are at altitude, you hit so many cell towers at once that you confuse the system, causing it to lock you out.  Not sure if this is a fact, though.

  

 I used to have a packet BBS (bulletin board system) back in the early 90's too, but haven't kept up with what's going on lately.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

 Ham call K9WEK

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 1/13/2007 7:08:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobperk(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Perkinson" <bobperk(at)bellsouth.net>



Ham radio operators were using digital packet repeaters back in the 80"s.

There was and might still be a network (SEDAN) (South East Digital Amateur's

Network) set up where on 2m you could communicate with another operator in

south FL. from middle TN.  Takes very little to setup a node.  I had several

set up in the Gallatin, TN area on different 2m frequencies that cross

linked with each other through an old 8088 computer. The Technology is

there.  As far as a cell signal the antenna are more than likely designed to

radiate horizontally.



Bob Perkinson

Hendersonville, TN.

RV9 N658RP Reserved

If nothing changes

Nothing changes 	


  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

alan(at)reichertech.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

APRS is the "Automatic Packet Reporting System", sometimes erroneously

calle the "Automatic Position Reporting System", but it does a lot more

than just position.

The position reporting implementation uses GPS messages fed to what is

called  a Terminal Node Controller which, essentially, takes the GPS data,

formulates a proper APRS digital message, and punts it to a 2-meter radio

for transmission.  Once over the airwaves (and assuming good coverage),

another station either receives the info and routes it to an internet

server, or repeats it on the same frequency for broader coverage.

The map on the internet is www.findu.com.  Here is the current information

on my own APRS station:

  http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?call=KG4TVQ-1

The portion of the string "KG4TVQ" is my amateur radio ID.  the "-1" is

the ID of the APRS station I'm using.  It is optional, but most hams use

it to differentiate different APRS stations (one in each car, one in the

house, etc).  If I recall correctly, this ID can be anything between 1 and

15.

I've just purchased some equipment to set up an APRS system to carry with

me in my Skylane, consisting of a small GPS received by Deluo, a small TNC

designed specifically for tracking, and a 2-meter handheld I have.

There is a fellow in the DC area that had been doing this for a while.  He

flies AND sails with an APRS system.  He does not have any recent flight

data, but here is his web page on the subject:

  http://www.dellabarba.com/flying/tracking/tracking.html

Remember, you need to be a licenses ham to do this.  If you want to pursue

that, check into

  http://www.arrl.org

for licensing information.

Probably more than you wanted to know....

- Alan

On Sun, January 14, 2007 2:57 am, RV-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Time: 11:49:34 AM PST US

 From: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Great Idea that's time has come?

 Hi, Charlie.  Your reference is to APRS, operating typically on the 2m

 band, using a beacon mode known as Mic-E.  I've read alot about it but

 never done it.  Coverage is far from nationwide at this time, but high

 in metro areas, and the tracking info it provides is open data for all

 to view on the web.  AIrcraft equipment requirement would be just a

 NMEA GPS cable to a 2m handie talkie with a Mic-E modem to key the

 beacon at appropriate intervals.  Rubber duck antenna would suffice, I

 think.  Google "APRS" for more than you ever wanted to know, except,

 it would seem, just how to put it into full operation.  Kudo's to

 whomever can take us pilots the rest of the way there.  ADS-B without

 the fees or the Feds 

 -Bill / Stormy

 On 1/13/07, Charlie England <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

>

> Vanremog(at)aol.com wrote:

>

> > Well, maybe an outstanding idea if user fees get past us.

> >

> > Since the list is a little slow lately, I thought I'd share a germ of

> > an idea with all you budding entrepreneurs who know how to write

> > software and such.

> >

> > How about a PC program that tracks your progress via cell phone

> > position technology and updates your pre-laid-in flight plan

> > automatically as you travel.  It could even call you to check if you

> > are overdue, off course or whatever and either confirm your safety or

> > call the authorities to come and dig your mangy corpse out of a

> > smoking hole ;o).

> >

> > Any comments or takers

> >

> > GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 833hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)

>

> Almost everyone reports poor to no performance with the new digital

> 'cell' phones when you're at altitude.

>

> On the other hand, the ham radio guys have a system that takes gps data

> & hands it, along with ID info the operator desires,  to a radio that

> can use 'repeaters' & can transmit data (3 meter band??). The operator

> sets the update timing (seconds, minutes, hours, etc). The nearest

> repeater on the ground hands off the data to a web server that puts a

> moving dot on a map.

>

> Open source ELT that works. I'm not sure how complete the coverage is at

> this time, but the technology is so cheap that an organization like EAA

> should be able to motivate members to become hams & add 'nodes'

> (repeater stations) until coverage is total. Unlike cell phone towers,

> one repeater could serve a huge area if it's getting signals from

> several thousand feet in the air.

>

> I'm not a ham operator, but this system almost pushed me into getting my

> license.

>

> I know there are a lot of hams on this list; someone jump in here.

>

> Charlie

truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

I am not a cell phone expert, but I have a friend who

is.  I asked him about using cell phones in aircraft

and below is his response as best as I can recall.

Cell phone towers cover an area like an umbrella. 

Think of parents under umbrellas at a high school

football game.  The antennae for cell systems are

directed slightly downward so they only cover so much

area.  This keeps five or six towers from picking up

your call and tying up valuable airtime.  When you use

your cell in an airplane, you can send your signal to

twenty towers, which the system is not designed to

handle and may drop your call mainly due to not being

able to pick the strongest signal, that is if it does

in fact pick up your call.  Put yourself at 30,000

feet and use your cell phone, you could pick up towers

in three states.  



Dave

--- Hopperdhh(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have heard that when you are at altitude, you hit

 so many cell towers at 

 once that you confuse the system, causing it to lock

 you out.  Not sure if this 

 is a fact, though.

 

 I used to have a packet BBS (bulletin board system)

 back in the early 90's 

 too, but haven't kept up with what's going on

 lately.

 

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

 Ham call K9WEK

 

 

 

 

 In a message dated 1/13/2007 7:08:34 PM Eastern

 Standard Time, 

 bobperk(at)bellsouth.net writes:

 

 <bobperk(at)bellsouth.net>

 

 Ham radio operators were using digital packet

 repeaters back in the 80"s.

 There was and might still be a network (SEDAN)

 (South East Digital Amateur's

 Network) set up where on 2m you could communicate

 with another operator in

 south FL. from middle TN.  Takes very little to

 setup a node.  I had several

 set up in the Gallatin, TN area on different 2m

 frequencies that cross

 linked with each other through an old 8088 computer.

 The Technology is

 there.  As far as a cell signal the antenna are more

 than likely designed to

 radiate horizontally.

 

 Bob Perkinson

 Hendersonville, TN.

 RV9 N658RP Reserved

 If nothing changes

 Nothing changes

 


	


 

It's here! Your new message!  

Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Great Idea that's time has come?

Keep in mind there's a limited range on these cellular things even

line-of-sight.   doubt they can work a cell phone tower three states

away- inverse, square law and flea power transmitter won't allow it.

Great info on the APRS, Alan.  So somebody's actually doing it...  I

had a 2m yaesu 40 watt FM rig in my RV panel for years.  Got lots of

"what's that?" questions from onlookers, but only used it maybe three

times in the air to work other hams, finally took it out to shed the

useless pounds.  APRS was my intention, but I felt I knew less about

APRS after reading Mpas, Tracks and Mobiles than before I read it, so

set the whole idea aside.  Now that coverage and internet connectivity

is more national, it's time to dust off the idea agan, with an HT this

time, instead of a panel mount.  (No, I'm not putting the IC-7000 in

the plane just yet!)  At least I know who to contact for Elmer-ing 

Poor man's ADS-B, yeah!

-Stormy / N4DLN

On 1/14/07, Dave Nellis <truflite(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I am not a cell phone expert, but I have a friend who

 is.  I asked him about using cell phones in aircraft

 and below is his response as best as I can recall.

 Cell phone towers cover an area like an umbrella.

 Think of parents under umbrellas at a high school

 football game.  The antennae for cell systems are

 directed slightly downward so they only cover so much

 area.  This keeps five or six towers from picking up

 your call and tying up valuable airtime.  When you use

 your cell in an airplane, you can send your signal to

 twenty towers, which the system is not designed to

 handle and may drop your call mainly due to not being

 able to pick the strongest signal, that is if it does

 in fact pick up your call.  Put yourself at 30,000

 feet and use your cell phone, you could pick up towers

 in three states.

 Dave

 --- Hopperdhh(at)aol.com wrote:

 > I have heard that when you are at altitude, you hit

 > so many cell towers at

 > once that you confuse the system, causing it to lock

 > you out.  Not sure if this

 > is a fact, though.

 >

 > I used to have a packet BBS (bulletin board system)

 > back in the early 90's

 > too, but haven't kept up with what's going on

 > lately.

 >

 > Dan Hopper

 > RV-7A

 > Ham call K9WEK

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > In a message dated 1/13/2007 7:08:34 PM Eastern

 > Standard Time,

 > bobperk(at)bellsouth.net writes:

 > 

 > <bobperk(at)bellsouth.net>

 >

 > Ham radio operators were using digital packet

 > repeaters back in the 80"s.

 > There was and might still be a network (SEDAN)

 > (South East Digital Amateur's

 > Network) set up where on 2m you could communicate

 > with another operator in

 > south FL. from middle TN.  Takes very little to

 > setup a node.  I had several

 > set up in the Gallatin, TN area on different 2m

 > frequencies that cross

 > linked with each other through an old 8088 computer.

 > The Technology is

 > there.  As far as a cell signal the antenna are more

 > than likely designed to

 > radiate horizontally.

 >

 > Bob Perkinson

 > Hendersonville, TN.

 > RV9 N658RP Reserved

 > If nothing changes

 > Nothing changes

 >

 It's here! Your new message!

 Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

 http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

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