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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

When you phrase it this way, which reading over the other posts for the

third time, I finally see the light. I do agree that we are convicting

before we know everything. Right or wrong with the verdict, we need to

see everything they did before we pass judgment.

Agreed, now I can move on...my Eggenfellner will be delivered in a

couple of week wanna come help install it on the 10?

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

We covered this case in my undergrad, this was the third time this

lawyer sued McDonalds because he felt the coffee was too hot. But the

public at large drinking coffee at McDonalds refused to drink the coffee

and complained when the temperature was decreased. This lawyer in

particular had a case with her because she was elderly, and spilled the

coffee on her genital area, and the pictures made for good press.

Here is another example we used in class, when fry's come out of the

fryer and are served direct to the public they are often hotter than the

coffee, but no one has sued them for burning there mouth because you

would be stupid to eat hot fry's. What actually happened with her was

that she was in a car that was not moving at the time, she took the lid

off of the cup, put in her condiments and incorrectly replaced the lid,

when she then picked up the coffee by the lid it then spilled in her

lap. So, the product was being used in a manner that it was not designed

for, the cup was more than thick enough to protect her hand from

burning, rather she picked it up by the lid, as well all have done. 

What she had in her favor was a lawyer with a vendetta against McDonalds

and other fast food chains, and good pictures of what happened, and high

profile press. Look up the lawyer and his history and you will find an

ambulance chaser.

And yes I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I wrote my final

paper for my law class on this case, so following Bob's statement, and

guidelines I did investigate the facts and did not come to the same

conclusion as the jury as to what was presented in the court

proceedings. 

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

The NTSB report says that the first responders (volunteer fire fighters)

were on site in less than 1 minute, and with in 1.5 minutes of their

arrival the fire was out, the autopsy reveals death by inhalation of

noxious fumes and burn trauma. So in reality he was dead before the fire

department got there, he was how ever not dead before the public

arrived, so in reality they should sue the public right?

Within reasonable expectations I would say the fire department responded

as quickly as possible.

But I would say there is a significant difference in being in an

emergency room and expecting correct care, versus suing the ambulance

company because they took too long to get to where your car burned up

with you inside of it.

But I do agree with you that we are making judgments not based on all of

the facts.   

Dan

--

dan(at)rdan.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

OK

  In Late 1999 I bought my first airplane a Cherokee, it was hangered in Arlington, the previous owner showed me right in front of our hanger door where an experimental airplane crashed during the airshow that summer, he was there and said it was the worse thing he'd ever seen, he tried to help, the gentleman in the plane's last words were "I'm dead".

  I looked at that burnt spot next to taxi way every time I taxied out of my hanger, it even had flowers on it once in a while.

   

  As a new pilot with my first airplane this really made me think if the was really what I wanted to do "fly airplane's" people die doing this.

  I was told it was  "pilot error" with a seatbelt around the control stick and lack of a good preflight, I wondered how someone could do this, then I was told they were in a rush to get off the ground.

  This has always been in my mind and I still look at the spot every once in  a while and in my mind I ask myself if I'm safe to fly and I will often do a control check,

  This has made me a better pilot,.,

  Bob I work close the the Snohomish County Courthouse and will go get the court record's if it's what we really need,

  Dan

  -8 Fuselage

  N728RV (reserved)

  



Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" 



//Bob, I for one would like to know more. However that said, I have a hard

time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is

responsible for his accident. 



Would you at least concede that the issue here is NOT what caused the

accident?



// Even if the emergencies services didn't show up at all. Had they caused

the crash and  then didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong

right it would be different. But... They didn't. Instead they showed up

and made every attempt 



That very well may be true but since nobody -- so far -- has been able to

identify one witness, one piece of testimony,one judge's instruction or one

element of the case, we can't very well say that.



Look, I'll tell you what. I'll bankroll the cost of picking up the court

records. I know there's a lot of Rvers on the list who live in this area.

Wouldn't someone be willing to go to the courthouse, pick up the documents,

FEDEX 'em to me and I'll make them all available somehow online for proper

discussion. If it shows this widow is just some money grubbing woman who

should be lynched, so be it. If it shows something else, that's fine. But at

least it'll be an informed opinion and informed deliberation.



Anyone?



Please?



Bob

Do not [quote][b]

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

//Here is another example we used in class, when fry's come out of the fryer

and are served direct to the public they are often hotter than the coffee,

but no one has sued them for burning there mouth because you would be stupid

to eat hot fry's. 

Ummm... Well I ain't no law school grad but I did work at McDonald's and,

well, huh?  The reason nobody eats french fries at McDonld's hotter than the

coffee at mcdonald's is because nobody EVER got french fries at Mcdonald's

hotter than the coffee because (a) they come out of the fryer and onto a

holding area and then -- if you're really luck at McDonald's -- they're put

into a smallerbag of fries sometime within the same week...all the while the

heat is dissipating. In fact, the only heat at the time is two 200 watt

bulbs.  This would be akin to taking a teaspoon of coffee blowing on it, and

then sipping it. (2) The pag they're put into is a, well, bag. Not an

insulated cup.



Coffee, on the othre hand is poured directliy FROM the equivalent of the

fryer, into an insulated cup, covered, and then it hits your lips.

Well, nevertheless, Dan... When the RV List comes to lynch the lawyers as

suggested, you can still hide at my house.



When the hordes come, we'll shimmy up to the roof and throw scaling french

fries at them!!!! (g)



And, by the way, McDonald's shouldn't have been sued because the coffee was

too hot. They should have been sued because their coffee really sucks.

Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

//The NTSB report says that the first responders (volunteer fire fighters)

were on site in less than 1 minute, and with in 1.5 minutes of their arrival

the fire was out, the autopsy reveals death by inhalation of noxious fumes

and burn trauma. So in reality he was dead before the fire department got

there, he was how ever not dead before the public arrived, so in reality

they should sue the public right?

Within reasonable expectations I would say the fire department responded as

quickly as possible.



I would also say 1 minute was a reasonable amount. However, that's an NTSB

report. It doesn't tell me where that information came from. I presume the

person was deposed during the court case, which is another reason I want to

see the documents.  It also conflicts with someone who was there who posted

on this thread earlier, " just have a couple of things to say on this.

First, I was there and I did see the crash. The emergency services did NOT

take 30 minutes to arrive. I don't know if it was 5 minutes as I didn't time

it, but it wasn't much longer than that."



The NTSB was unusually specific about the time, but did not offer any source

for the information. There was a brief regading the use of the NTSB report

in the case that was filed on December 13. Obviously, I don't know what it

says.



Terry Watson was kind enough to send me the court records index

((http://tinyurl.com/2rle3d)). There are a few things I noticed in the list

including 5 jury requests of the judge on Dec. 22. I'd love to know what

those requests were because they would help us ascertain the level of their

stupidity. There's also records of the judges instructions. And even more

important, there are jury notes available. If I can get the name of the

jurors, I would have no problem calling them and finding out what was behind

their verdict (the jurors, I don't believe, set the $10 million penalty. I

believe the jurors found liability only. But I could be wrong.)



Interesting to me, though I don't know if it's significant, that the judge

on this trial was changed at least once. The eventual judge in the case --

David Kurtz -- wasn't appointed a judge by the governot until after the case

had been filed. Here's some background on him.

http://www.governor.wa.gov/news/news-view.asp?pressRelease 28&newsType=1 .

He's filling an unexpired term.



Another judge who ruled on a motion fo rreconsideration (of what, I do not

know) in early December was Eric Lucas. Background on him here:

http://www1.co.snohomish.wa.us/Departments/Superior_Court/About/Judges/Judge

+Lucas.htm.  That ruling came the day the trial -- with Kurtz on the bench

-- opened. Hmmmm. It was Lucas who rejected the rquest for a summary

judgment in October 2006. (There were about 5 different summary judgement

requests and hearings)



A judge was changed because of some sort of prejudice in 2004. Judge David

F. Hulbert was taken off the case. Why? Beats me.



//But I would say there is a significant difference in being in an emergency

room and expecting correct care, versus suing the ambulance company because

they took too long to get to where your car burned up with you inside of it.

But I do agree with you that we are making judgments not based on all of

the facts.   



What if they didn't come at all. I'm just pointing this out not to say the

ambulance company should be sued in this case, but that they have a

responsibility for action that does not go away just because the person made

the decision to get in the car and drive. The level of responsibility is

certainly a debatable one, but the assertion that there is not a convergence

in risky activities of multiple responsibilities is a non-starter for me.



The lawyer for the defense -- although I don't know which defendants -- is a

pilot and sure seems to know aviation.

http://www.carneylaw.com/attorneys/getProfile.asp?attorney_id=78. If anyone

feels like having an e-mail conversation with him for some background, you

can reach him at laveson(at)carneylaw.com . He might also have just been a

witness. I'm not sure.



Other filings came from Barbara Lawrence-tolbert, who I think is the

director of the fly-in.



There was a filing from someone named James T. Nilo, that someone filed a

motion to supress. I did find a James Nilo in Virginia. According to a Web

site "Nilo was instrumental in significantly reducing the cost of mandatory

rescue and fire fighting training at Virginia's airports. Due to the

prohibitive cost of constructing a training center, fire and rescue

personnel had to travel out of state to receive training at unfamiliar

airports. Nilo recognized that simulation training would be a cost-effective

alternative and secured funding to purchase a Mobile Aircraft Rescue and

Fire Fighting Training Simulator. In addition to significantly reducing

costs, the simulator allows training to be held at airports where personnel

work.  "



If I had to guess, I'd guess Nilo was testifying on fire and rescue

operations at airports.



You know, this is a heck of an interesting story, and not just because I

like airplanes. I can remember when the Seattle Post Intelligencer was a

decent newspaper. They didn't cover this. No newspaper did. Mighty too bad.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm guessing EAA will be just fine. It's a flippin' money machine with deep pockets and fat cat corporate benefactors 	




Gosh, that makes it crystal clear to me why it was OK to hose the eaa with a huge settlement.



Bet several of the brilliant, open minded, unbiased, absolutely fair jurors think exactly the same way.

_________________
Milt

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will result

in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to worry

about.



But you knew that, Milt. You knew that. 



Do not archive



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

I just found something in the NTSB report that Gary Sobek was kind enough to post.



"After pulling out the necessary hose and completing the hook-up of their respirator system, which they began while en route, the firefighters applied water on the flaming wreckage. Within a minute to a minute and a half after their arrival, the fire was extinguished."



I wonder if one of the issues that was discussed was not necessarily the response time, but the equipment that was used. I'm no first responder -- although my son is -- but do you use water on a fuel-fed fire?

Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Mark Sletten

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Location: St. Jacob, IL (Near St. Louis, MO)

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

This argument continues to chase its own tail…  

   

Tim Bryan said:  

   

“I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies services didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it would be different.  But… They didn't. Instead they showed up and made every attempt short of getting someone else hurt to do what they are trained to do.”  

What Bob has asked is “How do you know?” How do you know what the responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the standard is for response time and actions?  

Those who continue to offer “facts” to this list to further their arguments have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference between fact and opinion. Most have only read about the story here on this list, yet speak as though there is no chance their view of the situation might be skewed. I remember my old gaffer telling me as a young lad (kindergarten I believe) “There are at least two sides to every story.”  

Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing that members of a community with which I identify myself are calling for violent action against a family who used to be a member of that community – even if the call to violence is only figurative. Let’s assume for a moment (shouldn’t be much of a problem considering all the assumption going around) that there IS more to this case than we’ve read here on the list, and those calling to “hang the family” are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if a member of that family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally, not figuratively) at that thought…  

Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives those you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. I’m sure any competent lawyer reading through this thread would laugh at how “stupid” we are…  

DO NOT ARCHIVE  

Mark Sletten  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Mark Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Well said Mark, and trust me the family and lawyers are reading this. I 

was there, but well not comment on what I did or did not see because

I have had lawyers call me from reading this list before. As I recall 

some of our own RV family tried desperately

to help Don but were unable to because of the fire, It was a very sad 

day and for anyone that was not a witness to be commenting on what happened

without knowing the facts is total BS. IMO



Jerry

do not archive



Mark Sletten wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   This argument continues to chase its own tail…



 Tim Bryan said:



 “I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe 

 someone else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies 

 services didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then 

 didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it 

 would be different. But… They didn't. Instead they showed up and made 

 every attempt short of getting someone else hurt to do what they are 

 trained to do.”



 What Bob has asked is “How do you know?” How do you know what the 

 responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you 

 a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the standard is for response 

 time and actions?



 Those who continue to offer “facts” to this list to further their 

 arguments have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference 

 between fact and opinion. Most have only read about the story here on 

 this list, yet speak as though there is no chance their view of the 

 situation might be skewed. I remember my old gaffer telling me as a 

 young lad (kindergarten I believe) “There are at least two sides to 

 every story.”



 Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing 

 that members of a community with which I identify myself are calling 

 for violent action against a family who used to be a member of that 

 community – even if the call to violence is only figurative. Let’s 

 assume for a moment (shouldn’t be much of a problem considering all 

 the assumption going around) that there IS more to this case than 

 we’ve read here on the list, and those calling to “hang the family” 

 are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if a member of that 

 family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally, not 

 figuratively) at that thought…



 Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives 

 those you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. I’m sure any 

 competent lawyer reading through this thread would laugh at how 

 “stupid” we are…



 DO NOT ARCHIVE



 Mark Sletten



------------------------------------------------------------------------

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Mark,  

   

Let’s be clear on something.  I never called for anybody to be lynched nor did I start this thread.  Yes, I was there, but no I am not a first responder.  What I said was only based on one thing.  This man died at his own hand.  His death was caused by the smoke inhalation which was caused by the fire and caused by the wreck.  Nobody contributed to any of this.  If the fire fighters did something adverse in his rescue, than they need to have further training.  If instead we start lynching the first responders for their attempts, then were will we be?  The responders didn’t cause the fire or the crash or the death.  If they caused him to suffer more because of their attempts, well your car will probably suffer more damage from the wrecker tipping it back over than when you rolled it into the ditch.  This is just the way it is.  

   

That said, I also said I WOULD be interested in seeing the actual facts.  I just can’t imagine what could be in there that might change my mind about “Who was at fault for this accident”.  I also can’t see what could possibly be worth this large judgment.  I NEVER said I wanted to lynch anybody and I was ready to throw a verdict now.  

   

I just wanted to clear up my position since you quoted me.  

Tim  

           

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten

 Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:44 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing  

  

   

This argument continues to chase its own tail…  

   

Tim Bryan said:  

   

“I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies services didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it would be different.  But… They didn't. Instead they showed up and made every attempt short of getting someone else hurt to do what they are trained to do.”  

What Bob has asked is “How do you know?” How do you know what the responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the standard is for response time and actions?  

Those who continue to offer “facts” to this list to further their arguments have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference between fact and opinion. Most have only read about the story here on this list, yet speak as though there is no chance their view of the situation might be skewed. I remember my old gaffer telling me as a young lad (kindergarten I believe) “There are at least two sides to every story.”  

Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing that members of a community with which I identify myself are calling for violent action against a family who used to be a member of that community – even if the call to violence is only figurative. Let’s assume for a moment (shouldn’t be much of a problem considering all the assumption going around) that there IS more to this case than we’ve read here on the list, and those calling to “hang the family” are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if a member of that family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally, not figuratively) at that thought…  

Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives those you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. I’m sure any competent lawyer reading through this thread would laugh at how “stupid” we are…  

DO NOT ARCHIVE  

Mark Sletten  

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        [quote][b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:13 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Too true, you would have laughed at us, we went to several McDonalds

around town, measuring various temps of the fry's at various times. We

found that during lunch time and other periods of high volume service

the French fry's did not sit the correct amount of wait time in the bin,

IE they were taken directly from the fryer, salted and distributed to

the customer. In these cases we asked for an example fry to measure

temperature's, and about 50% of the time the internal temp of the fry

was well over 200 degree's. This quickly dissipated over time, and like

you said they are supposed to sit in the bin cooling off, but that is

often not the case, we used this as a contrasting argument for the class

and one based on inconsistencies in what the lawyer was targeting as a

problem. In other words he was an ambulance chaser and that is what we

proved with our "mock" defense of McDonald's.

Since then I have decided that being a geek is a much nobler profession

and that is why I hide in the back room and do not talk to anyone other

than in emails.

Just my .0002

Dan 



--

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Nope water should not be used, rather AFFF, this is what we were trained

to use on all class B fires. Good catch another thing I noticed was that

they said the first people to arrive had fire extinguisher that were too

small and ran out, so that might be part of it. I too would be willing

to chip in some money to get copies of the actual proceedings. Do you

want to talk to the person who volunteered to get the info for us and

just tell me what I owe you for my half.

Dan 



--

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

The issue of assumed liability is interesting, wherein by contracting

emergency services, the Fly In may actually have increased its liability

because now there was an implied expectation of response times, fire

fighting effectiveness, et al.  Would the fly in participants have been

safer with no emergency response equipment on site?  No, but the Fly In

organizers may well have had less liability.  



Yes, this stands good reason on its head, but an analog to this was the

downhill skiing industry in the '60s.  A few people had mangled

themselves by getting up close and personal with the chair lift

standards or trees on the very edge of downhill runs.  Thinking that

dead patrons were unlikely to be return customers, the Ski Operators

under took a program of padding the standards (poles) that supported the

lifts and lights, if they had them.  As proof of the concept of

unintended consequences, they shortly thereafter started getting sued by

pole-kissers that were injured or killed, alleging that padding was

insufficient or ineffectual.  And, the plaintiffs were winning.  The Ski

Lift Operators responded by removing the padding and allowing the bare

steel to again be exposed....end of problem since the poles and trees

were a known hazard and the exposure was willingly undertaken by those

who paid a fee to ply the slopes.



I don't know what the current ski operator practices are in this regard.

Myself, I gave up downhill in the '80s....I got tired of running into

poles and trees.



Chuck Jensen

P.S. As Bob Collier has repeatedly warned, factual knowledge is a wee

bit short in this matter as to what the jury considered and decided, but

lack of facts never slowed speculations--in fact, it usually accelerates

it!

 

--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

//  His death was caused by the  smoke inhalation which was caused by the fire and caused by the wreck.   Nobody contributed to any of this.  If the fire fighters did something  adverse in his rescue, than they need to have further training.  If instead  we start lynching the first responders for their attempts, then were will we  be? 

  

 If we do that -- and we shouldn't -- without having the  full story, then we will be where we are: completely uninformed, not interested  in finding out what really happened, and dangerous in our ability to spread  supposition as fact to other readers who don't know any  better.

  

 I'm no big fan of the whole Seven Habits thing (Seven  Habits of Highly Effective People -- Steven Covey), but it is hard to argue with  one of the first rules "Seek FIRST to understand."  The Wright Brothers  didn't say "I think we can fly so therefore we can,  c'mon Orville let's go  for a bike ride," they investigated it, figured out what areas they were right  about, and what areas they were wrong about and constantly reassessed their  conclusion based on their desire to be more informed.

  

 The trouble is in our AM-talk-radio driven society, we  seem to be losing the ability to step outside the pack and say, "hmmmmm, maybe  what the host is telling me right, and maybe what he's saying is wrong, I wonder  if I have enough information to know for sure."

  

 Granted I'm overly sensitive to this. I'm in the news  business and I see -- every day -- the decline in critical thinking or even the  interest in it. I cover politics for a living. You now what the politicians do  in Minnesota at election time? They change their name to Anderson. why? Becuae  they know a lot of voters (and certainly not a majority, but enough to make a  difference), will look at a name like "anderson" and say, "hey, good  Scandanavian name,  she'll make a fine attorney  general."

  

 People have criticized the jury awad (although I still  am pretty sure the jury had nothing to do with the size of the award) for being  stupid. Maybe they were. Maybe they weren't. Everett, Washington -- as far as I  kow -- is full of really smart people, though.  

  

 We just have to stop this.  And, no, you didn't  call for a lynching and violence again people in our RV community. But the guy  who started this thread did. And nobody -- nobody -- stepped in to say, "shame  on you." 

  

 We are better than this.  I just know  it.

  

 Bob

  

 Do not archive in the archaic  archive

    [quote][b]

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

//Nope water should not be used, rather AFFF, this is what we were trained

to use on all class B fires. Good catch another thing I noticed was that

they said the first people to arrive had fire extinguisher that were too

small and ran out, so that might be part of it. 



Maybe, although I took from the reading (and I well be making my own set of

assumptions), that they were mostly just plain folks, other aircraft owners

with extinguishers in their planes etc. In fact, as I read it, I thought,

"wow, there were some real heroes who were first on scene trying to get the

guy out of a burning wreck, who had the presence of mind to remember they

had those extinguishers and were able to quickly get them."



The other thing that I found interesting in the NTSB report was that the

plane only got up 70-100 feet before it crashed.



//I too would be willing to chip in some money to get copies of the actual

proceedings. Do you want to talk to the person who volunteered to get the

info for us and just tell me what I owe you for my half.



I'm going to send an e-mail to the clerk today and find out what the best

way for getting them is.  There's no way I can afford to get all the paper

in this case at a buck a page, so I have to kind of cherrypick through the

list and figure out what can provide the most bang for the....ummm... Buck.



Bob



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_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Why is it such a bad thing

 	  Bob Collins wrote: 	
		  Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will result

in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to worry

about.



But you knew that, Milt. You knew that. 



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-- 	




Bob,



You are correct, I knew that and do not mean to belittle your opinion. I know from your many posts and the hotline you are an honest open minded individual and would be that way on a jury.



My point is that you are a rarity and most jurors bring a strong bias to the jury room. Doesn't matter what the charge from the judge is when the door is closed the jury does as it pleases.



I am a prime example, were I on the that jury I would enter the court with a mindset of there is no way the eaa or first responders are gonna get burnt and I am certain there would be one or more in the room who subscribe to the deep pocket theory. I think at best the outcome of a trial is  slightly biased in the favor of fact and strongly biased in favor of raw emotion, sympathy for surviving family, and prejudice.



I believe this is supported by the 2 extremes of responses to this thread.



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_________________
Milt

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

I personally believe there's something wrong with the system when a  

person *can't* assume liability for his own actions.



I believe strongly in the concept of "informed consent".  If I buy an  

airplane one of you built, I know the dangers and you should be  

absolved of any liability provided you don't hide known defects from  

me.  It's not your job to tell me what the dangers are -- it's your  

job to say, "This airplane was built by me and you should get it  

inspected before you fly it.  Also, I deviated from the plans when I  

installed a whatchamacallit, so you'll want to have your mechanic pay  

special attention to that and fix it if he's not satisfied."  If I  

then take the plane for a ride and the wings fall off cause you  

forgot to put the bolts back in last night when getting it ready for  

sale, that's my fault, not yours.  You TOLD me to get it inspected  

before I fly it, after all.



Unfortunately, our legal system doesn't agree with me.



-Joe

do not archive



On Jan 18, 2007, at 8:29 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:



[quote] 



 The issue of assumed liability is interesting, wherein by contracting

 emergency services, the Fly In may actually have increased its  

 liability

 because now there was an implied expectation of response times, fire

 fighting effectiveness, et al.  Would the fly in participants have  

 been

 safer with no emergency response equipment on site?  No, but the  

 Fly In

 organizers may well have had less liability.



 Yes, this stands good reason on its head, but an analog to this was  

 the

 downhill skiing industry in the '60s.  A few people had mangled

 themselves by getting up close and personal with the chair lift

 standards or trees on the very edge of downhill runs.  Thinking that

 dead patrons were unlikely to be return customers, the Ski Operators

 under took a program of padding the standards (poles) that  

 supported the

 lifts and lights, if they had them.  As proof of the concept of

 unintended consequences, they shortly thereafter started getting  

 sued by

 pole-kissers that were injured or killed, alleging that padding was

 insufficient or ineffectual.  And, the plaintiffs were winning.   

 The Ski

 Lift Operators responded by removing the padding and allowing the bare

 steel to again be exposed....end of problem since the poles and trees

 were a known hazard and the exposure was willingly undertaken by those

 who paid a fee to ply the slopes.



 I don't know what the current ski operator practices are in this  

 regard.

 Myself, I gave up downhill in the '80s....I got tired of running into

 poles and trees.



 Chuck Jensen

 P.S. As Bob Collier has repeatedly warned, factual knowledge is a wee

 bit short in this matter as to what the jury considered and  

 decided, but

 lack of facts never slowed speculations--in fact, it usually  

 accelerates

 it!



 --

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Why is it such a bad thing

Bob,



I'll contribute also.  I tried sending you the offer off line but my

emails to you bounced back.  Your spam/garbage blocker must be very

intuitive and recognized me immediately.



Chuck Jensen

 

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