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701 wing mis-information

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zsmith3rd(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

No, you aren't missing anything.......both wings DO go on the aircraft.



Others will probably have a faster, slicker, better, easier, etc, etc, way;  here goes:



First thing is to make sure the fuselage is LEVEL side-to-side.  Tire pressure.



Then, consider this a two-part job; wings first, struts second.



I suspended both wings at the approximate location where they'd mount.  Both were nearly parallel with the floor.

You could raise the tips a bit if it makes you feel better.



First thing is to slide the front spars into the front fuselage mounts.  Do NOT drill yet.

Trim as necessary for fitting at the rear.  What you trim will be obvious when you get there.



What you need to be concerned with is a string from tip-to-tip along the front spar top rivet line.  Make sure the two wings are lined up with each other (straight line tip-to-tip).



Then mark a spot on top of the rear fuselage as far aft as possible.  

Measuring from this spot to wing tips (same reference on each wing) will "square" the wings with the fuselage.

Re-check top string along rivet line, and continue checking it.



Don't worry about the dihedral/75mm just now, that's later with the struts.



Once you are absolutely sure you are ready to drill front and rear holes, really sure, just drill a #30 hole in each FRONT and use a long Cleco.  Check the top string.



Check again the rear fitup.  Drill #30 at the rear attachment.



At this point you are committed....too late to change.



The struts can be a challenge.  Mine were the two-piece type; there is some cutting required.

Mark, with masking tape and a Sharpie, all the strut pieces. (left, right, front, rear, inboard end, etc.)

It is not likely that any of the strut pieces will interchange once you drill them!! 

 

You may now need to support the wings from underneath, OUTBOARD of the strut attach points.  



The 75mm isn't difficult.....but obtaining 75mm at BOTH points can ruin your day.

I found that a golf cart has a sloping roof, just fits under the wingtip, that several thicknesses of wood shingles made good wedges, and things progressed much better/faster with some method of shimmimg BOTH wingtips.  Two carts would have been great, but ended up building a very tall sawhorse for one side.



Bottom line here is that if you get the wings square with the fuselage, the same dihedral in both wings, and manage to stab the struts you will have put in a long day.



Regards,



Zed/do nor archive

hrs1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Zed . . . I'm not there yet, but thank you in advance for such clear, 

concise instructions of what can be a very difficult point of 

constuctopm/  Robert Schoenberger 701   do not archive.



Zed Smith wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 No, you aren't missing anything.......both wings DO go on the aircraft.



 Others will probably have a faster, slicker, better, easier, etc, etc, way;  here goes:



 First thing is to make sure the fuselage is LEVEL side-to-side.  Tire pressure.



 Then, consider this a two-part job; wings first, struts second.



 I suspended both wings at the approximate location where they'd mount.  Both were nearly parallel with the floor.

 You could raise the tips a bit if it makes you feel better.



 First thing is to slide the front spars into the front fuselage mounts.  Do NOT drill yet.

 Trim as necessary for fitting at the rear.  What you trim will be obvious when you get there.



 What you need to be concerned with is a string from tip-to-tip along the front spar top rivet line.  Make sure the two wings are lined up with each other (straight line tip-to-tip).



 Then mark a spot on top of the rear fuselage as far aft as possible.  

 Measuring from this spot to wing tips (same reference on each wing) will "square" the wings with the fuselage.

 Re-check top string along rivet line, and continue checking it.



 Don't worry about the dihedral/75mm just now, that's later with the struts.



 Once you are absolutely sure you are ready to drill front and rear holes, really sure, just drill a #30 hole in each FRONT and use a long Cleco.  Check the top string.



 Check again the rear fitup.  Drill #30 at the rear attachment.



 At this point you are committed....too late to change.



 The struts can be a challenge.  Mine were the two-piece type; there is some cutting required.

 Mark, with masking tape and a Sharpie, all the strut pieces. (left, right, front, rear, inboard end, etc.)

 It is not likely that any of the strut pieces will interchange once you drill them!! 

  

 You may now need to support the wings from underneath, OUTBOARD of the strut attach points.  



 The 75mm isn't difficult.....but obtaining 75mm at BOTH points can ruin your day.

 I found that a golf cart has a sloping roof, just fits under the wingtip, that several thicknesses of wood shingles made good wedges, and things progressed much better/faster with some method of shimmimg BOTH wingtips.  Two carts would have been great, but ended up building a very tall sawhorse for one side.



 Bottom line here is that if you get the wings square with the fuselage, the same dihedral in both wings, and manage to stab the struts you will have put in a long day.



 Regards,



 Zed/do nor archive

stevekimk(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Zed Smith has  missed only one step. In procedures I received from Nick Heintz recently, you  must also level the aircraft fore and aft with a spirit level on the upper  longerons, also achieved by altering the nose wheel tire  pressure.

 Otherwise a  very thoughtful and accurate  post Zed.

  

 Zed  writes: 

No, you aren't  missing anything.......both wings DO go on the aircraft.



Others will  probably have a faster, slicker, better, easier, etc, etc, way;   here

goes:



First thing is to make sure the fuselage is LEVEL  side-to-side.  Tire pressure.



(more follows)

  

 Steve Kurash

 701 scratch builder in Costa Rica

 Fuselage 99% completed including wings and  empenage. Some day I will make the powerplant  decision!

   [quote][b]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Steve

  

 Not on the upper longerons, there is an  A-E reference line that you must create to level the fuselage, see 

 7-F-2. The upper longerons have a slight curve to them when installed on  the side skins. You also might want to think about blocking the fuselage level  in all axis, the tires and spring/ bungee gear will move as you put weight  on them. Why chase the level with a moving fuselage? 

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX/912S/100 hrs

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 1/23/2007 11:37:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  stevekimk(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Zed Smith has    missed only one step. In procedures I received from Nick Heintz recently, you    must also level the aircraft fore and aft with a spirit level on the upper    longerons, also achieved by altering the nose wheel tire    pressure.

   Otherwise a    very thoughtful and accurate  post  Zed.

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Jon(at)joncroke.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Hi all,

  

 I am seeking a little clarification to the 701 wing rigging issue... I dont  understand the need for all of this fuselage leveling... I agree with Zed's  procedure (and have used it quite successfully) of wing rigging.... notice that  all adjusting is done in reference to the fuselage itself or the opposite wing..  nothing I noticed entails rigging in relationship to 'level' with the  earth.  You could complete Zed's procedure  with the fuse sitting on a  sloped parking ramp....  kinda similar to the issue of making  'sure' your table is level before building your wings!!  (Does it make a  difference?) 

  

  So -  I am simply looking for understanding on how leveling  helps the wing rigging process... inquiring minds want to know!

  

 Thanks!

  

 Jon

 [quote]   ---

n701rr(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

I'm with you Jon.  I studied this long and hard and I visualized a big 12' triangle X 2.  No measurements at all dependent on mother earth.  I even installed mine with the nose gear on a wheel dolly.  No effect to the triangle...I mean airplane at all.



Jon Croke <Jon(at)joncroke.com> wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		          Hi all,

   

  I am seeking a little clarification to the 701 wing rigging issue... I dont understand the need for all of this fuselage leveling... I agree with Zed's procedure (and have used it quite successfully) of wing rigging.... notice that all adjusting is done in reference to the fuselage itself or the opposite wing.. nothing I noticed entails rigging in relationship to 'level' with the earth.  You could complete Zed's  procedure  with the fuse sitting on a sloped parking ramp....  kinda similar to the issue of making 'sure' your table is level before building your wings!!  (Does it make a difference?) 

   

   So -  I am simply looking for understanding on how leveling helps the wing rigging process... inquiring minds want to know!

   

  Thanks!

   

  Jon

   	  Quote: 	
		   	
	




Rick 

Sharpsburg, GA. USA 

http://www.n701rr.com [quote][b]

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Jon, 

  

 I suppose you are right as far as setting the wings. While I did level my  fuselage, I don't regret it since it was easy to make sure there wasn't any  twist to the wings when installing the rear struts and it made it easy to  rig the angles on the flaperons.

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX

  

  

  

 In a message dated 1/23/2007 1:51:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  Jon(at)joncroke.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Hi all,

    

   I am seeking a little clarification to the 701 wing rigging issue... I    dont understand the need for all of this fuselage leveling... I agree with    Zed's procedure (and have used it quite successfully) of wing rigging....    notice that all adjusting is done in reference to the fuselage itself or the    opposite wing.. nothing I noticed entails rigging in relationship to 'level'    with the earth.  You could complete Zed's procedure  with the fuse    sitting on a sloped parking ramp....  kinda similar to the    issue of making 'sure' your table is level before building your wings!!     (Does it make a difference?) 

    

    So -  I am simply looking for understanding on how leveling    helps the wing rigging process... inquiring minds want to know!

    

   Thanks!

    

   Jon

	


 

  

  [quote][b]

Geoff Heap

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 266
Location: Lindenwold, New Jersey

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: Re: 701 wing mis-information

Further to what Bob said. Maybe the AE line does not need to be levelled. My pref is to do so. For anyone who also wants to do this I suggest using a small diameter clear plastic tube attached to the fuse with the ends fixed at the two AE points. Let it hang. When you move the fuse its still there. Fill with your favourite colored water and you have a permanent level. I built my wing table like that too. Thanks for the other info. Wing attach is next for me but I need warmer weather. My hangar?? is 20 x 12.....Geoff

stevekimk(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Actually Jon it does matter.  Especially the leveling  of the aircraft along the A-E reference line ( I stand corrected Bob). This  is because of the wing dihedral. If the wing had no dihedral there would be no  need to level along A-E.  Try this explanation, on your plane with wings  and struts installed, string a line from wingtip to wingtip at the rivet  line.  Get on a ladder and look down from above at the string and  rivet line relationship. Notice, that as you move your eye a little forward,  then rearward, that you can make the string line appear as if it is not in line  with the rivet line. It will look like the wings are either swept forward or  swept aft. The dihedral causes this effect. Alternatively, you could drop the  tail of the plane by blocking up the nose wheel and view your string line/rivet  line. I'll bet it looks like your wings are swept back! N.B. If it looks like  the rivet line IS in line with the rivet line, then your eye is not exactly 90  degrees over the string line, or your wings are in fact NOT perfectly  aligned.  Any way, back to the point, if you were setting the  wing incidence in this condition (tail low) you would move the wing tips  forward until the string line and rivets were aligned and then drill the aft  mounting holes IN THE WRONG LOCATION. So............ in order to set the wing  incidence in the fore and aft dimension (i.e. neither swept forward on backward)  you must level the aircraft along A-E and view the string/rivet line  relationship from EXACTLY above the string (90  degrees). 

 Steve       

 ----- Original  Message ----- 

Time: 10:49:37 AM PST US

From: "Jon Croke"  <Jon(at)joncroke.com (Jon(at)joncroke.com)>

Subject: Re: 701 wing mis-information



Hi  all,



I am seeking a little clarification to the 701 wing rigging issue...  I 

dont understand the need for all of this fuselage leveling... I agree  

with Zed's procedure (and have used it quite successfully) of wing  

rigging.... notice that all adjusting is done in reference to the  

fuselage itself or the opposite wing.. nothing I noticed entails rigging  

in relationship to 'level' with the earth.  You could complete Zed's  

procedure  with the fuse sitting on a sloped parking ramp....   kinda 

similar to the issue of making 'sure' your table is level before  

building your wings!!  (Does it make a difference?) 



 So  -  I am simply looking for understanding on how leveling helps the 

wing  rigging process... inquiring minds want to  know!



Thanks!



Jon

  ---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

..the elimination of parallax error is one of the things involved. In some ways, this is specifically the reason why it is so critical to have the plane leveled according to the designers requirements when doing a weight and ballance.



Steve & Kim Kurash <stevekimk(at)gmail.com> wrote:  [quote]        Actually Jon it does matter.  Especially the leveling of the aircraft along the A-E reference line ( I stand corrected Bob). This is because of the wing dihedral. If the wing had no dihedral there would be no need to level along A-E.  Try this explanation, on your plane with wings and struts installed, string a line from wingtip to wingtip at the rivet line.  Get on a ladder and  look down from above at the string and rivet line relationship. Notice, that as you move your eye a little forward, then rearward, that you can make the string line appear as if it is not in line with the rivet line. It will look like the wings are either swept forward or swept aft. The dihedral causes this effect. Alternatively, you could drop the tail of the plane by blocking up the nose wheel and view your string line/rivet line. I'll bet it looks like your wings are swept back! N.B. If it looks like the rivet line IS in line with the rivet line, then your eye is not exactly 90 degrees over the string line, or your wings are in fact NOT perfectly aligned.  Any way, back to the point, if you were setting the wing incidence in this condition (tail low) you would move the wing tips forward until the string line and rivets were aligned and then drill the aft mounting holes IN THE WRONG LOCATION. So............ in order to set the wing incidence in  the fore and aft dimension (i.e. neither swept forward on backward) you must level the aircraft along A-E and view the string/rivet line relationship from EXACTLY above the string (90 degrees). 

  Steve      

  ---

Jon(at)joncroke.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

Steve, David, and all,

  

 I appreciate your input on this...

  

 I do understand the error in visual preception that  occurs when you are not viewing the rivet line at exactly 90 degrees from  above...

  

 This is why I will still suggest that the best way  (for me, anyway.. and I respect others' way of dealing with this) is to NOT  level the plane in any direction but rather use a measuring tape, which is not  affected by parallax errors or trying to determine an exact 90 degree  observation vantage (because you WILL be on a ladder trying to attempt this  observation).  The measurement of a point on both wing tips to a common  point on the fuselage will determine with great accuracy the proper alignment of  the wings.  No guessing here.. I agree wholeheartly with Steve about  viewing the rivet line and seeing it move when you start lifting the wings.. or  moving your head to the left or right....that is precisely why I don't like to  to make judgements from what I see when the angle of sight is so critical.    I start by leveling each wing to each other (not the ground!)   and then adjust each wing to match (to the millimeter using a tape) from that  far point on the fuselage near the tail to each wing tip.  When this is  done (and use  a helper to confirm accuracy), drill the tabs.  Of  course, watch your edge distances...  Your last detail is to raise both  wings to the specs in the plans.. which, again have no basis on level to earth,  rather they are measured with a ruler to points between the fuse and  wings.

  

 Nothing wrong with eyeballing things for  confirmation and comfort, but I rather use a ruler to make the  final adjustments.

  

 I do NOT have the final word on this, but am simply  expressing my understanding of what is in my head at this time.  I look  forward to more discussion on this if you think I have it wrong.   Sometimes, what works best for each of us may be different -- and thats  OK !  (I am not saying you are wrong to level things -- just that it  creates no advantage for my method, and might cause confusion in the  least)

  

 You guys are the best!

  

 Jon

 [quote]   ---

Jon(at)joncroke.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

And I did forget (sorry!) to mention that I use the  string (also used for dihedral setting) to determine when the rivet lines are  matched from wing to wing (to make sure the wings are not swept forward or  aft).  The string will be touching the rivet lines so it is easy to  see this adjustment. 

  

 [quote]   ---

graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: 701 wing mis-information

I hope you are leveling the fuse also otherwise you  may endup with a parrallel wings and fuse not level

 To make it easy it is best to level and square fuse  before this critical stage of setting up wings.

 you are setting up 

 front of wings mount position at same  height.

 wings parralell in forwards and backwards  direction

 angle of incidence front mount point to back mount  point

 Dihedral at front of wing.

 angle of incedence at both outer wings

 so you need to get it right

  

  

  

 Graeme bell 

 [quote]   ---

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