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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

One of the main reasons I chose to build a Kitfox was the ability to fold it up and keep it at home.  This made owning an airplane affordable for me.



I will be ready to start flying soon and have found that I am locked out of our local airport.  The county's policy is that Keys to the airport gates are issued only to hanger and tie down tennants.  The airport manager does not see this as an issue.  She said I can ask someone at the FBO to open a gate each time I want in or out.  This is not acceptable to me.  Not only is it a huge inconvienence for both me and the FBO, I am restricted to having airport access during the FBO's business hours only...9 to 5 Mon through Sat...closed Sun.



I plan to attend the  Airport Advisory Committee's meeting on Feb. 13 to ask that they propose a change in this policy to the County commisioners.  I would like to hear some good ideas on arguments for me to present.  I plan to be nice and polite.



Tom Jones, Classic 4, Ellensburg, WA

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

I know you didn't want to pay extra for parking, but what is the charge for parking an aircraft outside? You might throw it by them that you want to tie it up outside and just fold it up and take it home for maintainance.  Which would end up being every night, but you don't need to tell them that.  I think my airport is 50 a month, I don't think that is too bad.

aldaniels(at)fmtcblue.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

I have an idea. Move to Ontario Oregon ONO. We actually like airplanes 

here. We have no sales tax, no property tax on planes, and we only 

charge less than 12 cents a square foot per year for space to build a 

hangar, or $150 a year for a nice tie down space. We usually have hangar 

space for $100 to $125 a month, but they are all full now.  We have no 

gates or fences, we have picnic tables, grass, and trees. We have a very 

nice community with a very low cost of housing and the best flying 

weather in the country, and we are within an hour flying of some of the 

best flying in the world. IMHO



Do not archive



 	  Quote:

ray_mckinley(at)evansinet
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Hi I am moving to the Bend OR area for that very reason the airport which I

am close to has a very limited access and you only get the code if you pay a

monthly tie down fee.  I keep my Kitfox at home and do not feel obligated to

pay there fee.  There for I am obligated to find a lonely country road and

fly from it.  This is far from acceptable as I pay taxes that support the

locale airport and should have access to it weather or not I keep the plane

there or not.



--

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

ONO, sounds great, but unfortunatly, I need my business to keep my hobby going. But, flying down and visiting would be high on my list of places to go this summer.

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

Okay, thanks, tese are some ideas i will think about.



kitfox Mike, renting an outside tie down may work, I'll go down tomorrow and ask how much for a spot.



Alan, I miss the small town airports a lot,  Ellensburg may be considered small by some but the Washington westside money is moving in and changing it to Issaqua East. (no offence Don P.).  I lived in lexington OR for 15 years.  1/5th owner in a cherokee 180.  600 feet from door step to runway.  Hanger $25/month, all fixed costs split 5 ways and only two of us ever used the airplane.  Silent partners are nice.



Ray, I lived in La Pine for 10 years.  Do you have contacts in Bend.  I can give you the local EAA news letter and Kitfox owner info if you want.



The hay field accross the road from where I live now will probably see some kitfox use after my airplane gets into phase 2.  I'm a new tail wheel pilot and don't think my insurance would think kindly of that option yet.

Picture attached.  



Lets hear some more arguments for a key to the airport for now.  Do not archive.



Tom Jones

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

At 06:37 PM 2/9/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lets hear some more arguments for a key to the airport for now.  Do 

not archive.

As I told Ray, you might want to contact the local DA. I'm trying to 
	


remember if you have a legal right to access to public property. (Law 

school was a long time ago.) I know they've got security concerns, 

but I don't think paying a tie-down fee quite qualifies as a background check.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

At 02:50 PM 2/9/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is far from acceptable as I pay taxes that support the

locale airport and should have access to it weather or not I keep the plane

there or not.


	


I agree. I hate to say this, but I think you should contact the local 

District Attorney. I believe if it's public property you should 

legally have access without payment.





Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Hi Tom,



What do they do for people who fly in after FBO hours?

 Is no one allowed to commute thru this airport and

stay over?  Isn't this policy reducing local support

for business?  What if a businessman from another city

wants to fly in or out after FBO hours?



Kurt S.



Do not archive



--- Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   One of the main reasons I chose to build a Kitfox

 was the ability to fold it up and keep it at home. 

 This made owning an airplane affordable for me.

 

 I will be ready to start flying soon and have found

 that I am locked out of our local airport.....


	




 

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aldaniels(at)fmtcblue.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

If the airport has taken FAA money it is required to provide public 

access. Some funds require 20 years of public access and other types, 

especially land acquisitions  are in perpetuity. Security is an issue 

particularly if the airport has scheduled airline flights, but usually 

the GA area is separate but is still an issue. Most airports I am aware 

of regulate keys or access cards, but many do not track who comes and 

goes. That is usually done with video surveillance. I don't think you 

will have a problem getting a key or card.  They may charge you the 

security portion of the tie down fee, but it should be minimal. So far I 

have been able to pass Homeland Security checks without fences or gates 

by using the AOPA airport watch program. I will fight restricting the 

airport to the very end. We have people come and walk around the planes 

while eating lunch or bring the kids out to watch the planes. I have 

spent over 3 million in the last four years helping make this a nice 

airport, and its all for the pilots and public and they sure can use it 

here. Most light GA planes weigh less than a VW bug. What are they going 

to do, knock down an outhouse. I thought that the story of Chicken 

Little was a child's story about overreacting. I did not realize it was 

to become official government policy.   In police work we called it gang 

or crowd mentality, and it is alive and well in government.



Do not archive   

 	  Quote:

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Tony

  

 Sounds like you have a very nice airport manager and will be able to work something out.  Going to the Airport Commission might surprise you how slooow things can happen in government.  If you convince the advisory board then they must put the business on the agenda and publish the agenda and then their recommendations can be sent to the City council who can then send it to their legal council who can then return it with amendments and then if it doesn't have to be reconsidered because of the feelings of some local pilots feeling of fairness then you might get the change in a few months...probably in time for next (2008) summers flying season.  

  

 They may have to provide public access to the public airport...but they can require specific rules be followed and insurances paid for etc.   It will be a lot easier and more rewarding to work with the manager.  You may get the key without the tiedown if you pay the daily fee.

  

 Jim Shumaker

 ---

_________________
Jim Shumaker

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Sounds a lot like 0N0(zero November Zero) in liberty MO. (roosterville)  the

only dif is that we do pay some taxes but the hangers cost $65 a month



--

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Threaten to sue, and they will open the gate.

---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

 	  Quote: 	
		  What do they do for people who fly in after FBO hours? 	




People that fly in use the walk through gates.  I need to use the drive through gate to get my Kitfox through on a trailer.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Security is an issue 

particularly if the airport has scheduled airline flights, but usually 

the GA area is separate but is still an issue. 	




The reason the airport manager gave me for the key policy is that it is a security issue.  There are no airline flights at this airport and the fence is not going to keep terriorists out.  I will gladly submit to the same security screeneing they give the airport tennants, whatever that is.  I was a federal employee for 31 years so my finger prints are already on file.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Threaten to sue, and they will open the gate. 	




I am going to try to smother them with politness first.  It will be a struggle for me to not be scarcastic though.  My mouth has gotten me in trouble before.



Do not archive

Tom Jones

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

Sorry people,

I think being nice will get you a lot further than the rough and grough.  The experience I've had with airports, both spokane international and Felts, says this is true. With just the controllers, if I'm nice, which I always am, I basically get to do anything I want when flying, of course safety comes first, but when I make a request, 90% or better of the time I get it.  I believe the same is true with the managers, you upset them, they will make your life miserable.  What Tom wants here is a place to fly the airplane, yes he might need to pay a small fee for tie up, but look at it this way, when he doesn't want to load up the plane and take it home, he can just tie it up and go home and have it ready to go in the morning.  And... he won't have to worry about is pride and joy because it's all locked up inside the airport.  Lot's of crazy, inconsiderate poeple roming the streets, that would like to do nothing more than distroy something, just for the fun of it.  And... sometimes a stupid fence will keep them out.



I rent a hangar for 200+ a month, but, I get to fly a whole lot more because the airplane is 5 minutes from my house, and 15 minutes from my shop.  So, what does this mean to me, well, I take an hour and a half for lunch and fly for a half hour many times. I wake up in the morning at 5, and fly for an hour before work, generally in the summer time, and then after work I'll fly again for an hour.  The hangar is really worth it to me. Another thing I do is look over on the plane at the end of the day when life isn't so busy, I'll fuel it up, do a walk around, repair or maintain whatever when things are at it's worse for flying.  Then I have the security that no one has bothered the plane and when I pull it out the next day, it's ready to go and I don't have to worry about it.  Generally just a quick look see and a check of the fuel caps and away I go. 



I quess it's what is your priority in life.  Right now it's flying for me.



Tom,

If you are in the Spokane area with your fox, write to me before you come and we will do some flying together, I would love to take you around and show you some of our area.

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Here are some arguments, Tom:

   

  * your tax dollars support the airport.

  * no compelling reason to treat you differently than tenants.

  * increased useage of facilities can translate into increased FAA funding.

  * Less restrictive means are available to achieve airport security goals.

  * Use numerical combination lock on at least one gate (like on many GA terminal buidings) and publish combo in airport directory.

  * This policy is "elitist" at a time when GA airports need all the support they can get.

   

  Good luck!

   

  do not archive  

   

Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" 



One of the main reasons I  chose to build a Kitfox was the ability to fold it up and keep it at home. This made owning an airplane affordable for me.



I will be ready to start flying soon and have found that I am locked out of our local airport. The county's policy is that Keys to the airport gates are issued only to hanger and tie down tennants. The airport manager does not see this as an issue. She said I can ask someone at the FBO to open a gate each time I want in or out. This is not acceptable to me. Not only is it a huge inconvienence for both me and the FBO, I am restricted to having airport access during the FBO's business hours only...9 to 5 Mon through Sat...closed Sun.



I plan to attend the Airport Advisory Committee's meeting on Feb. 13 to ask that they propose a change in this policy to the County commisioners. I would like to hear some good ideas on arguments for me to present. I plan to be nice and polite.



Tom Jones, Classic 4, Ellensburg, WA





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eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Tm

I guess we need to hold a kitfox flyin/ sleepover  to try and help you out 

if we swamp them with kitfoxers and baffle em with bs we might get them to 

gve you a key just to get rid of the rest of us lol .

Good luck my friend on your quest for justice .



Fly safe

John Perry



Do not archive

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: Need airport access ideas...help

Ask the airport manager to hire you to check the status of the gates as a

volunteer security advisor.  You can say you have already passed a security

check (earlier post) and would perform a service to the airport.  You won't

be affecting the positions of current airport employees.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like you have a very nice airport manager and will be able to work something out. Going to the Airport Commission might surprise you how slooow things can happen in government. If you convince the advisory board then they must put the business on the agenda and publish the agenda and then their recommendations can be sent to the City council who can then send it to their legal council who can then return it with amendments and then if it doesn't have to be reconsidered because of the feelings of some local pilots feeling of fairness then you might get the change in a few months...probably in time for next (2008) summers flying season. 	




You are right about the slowness Jim.  I went to the county on Jan. 12th to ask for a gate key figureing there might be a security check or such that might take a couple weeks.  Instead of getting a key I was told I could go to the next Airport Advisory board meeting scheduled for Feb. 13 and give input on the Key policy.  I told the airport manager I would be there.  I went to the meeting last night to find an empty conference room.  The meeting was canceled due to lack of agenda items.  Crap, I guess I was the only agenda item but not important enough to be notified the meeting was cancelled.  I'll quit wineing now.  Do not archive.

Tom Jones

84KF
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Need airport access ideas...help

This is what you need to read and understand...and let the "authorities" know you have a copy and are familiar  with it. It states your right to airport\airfield access (within reason naturally)



FAA Advisory Circular  No: 150/5190-6



Subject: EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS AT FEDERALLY-OBLIGATED AIRPORTS



Date: January 4, 2007 AC No: 150/5190-6  Initiated by: AAS-400 



http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/airports/resources/advisory_circulars/index.cfm?template=Document_Listing&Keyword=150/5190-6&DocumentSelected=1

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