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Coordinated turns to base and final
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wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

For what it's worth, I seem to be getting the opposite behavior when turning left base to final. I need left rudder rolling into the turn and a touch of left to stay coordinated through the turn. As I roll into the turn, I add a little back pressure to keep the airspeed constant. One thing that helped me tremendously was to make sure that I didn't start the turn until the descent has stabilized on the downwind. If I tried to turn before that point, all the forces involved are change throughout the turn making it much more difficult to stay coordinated. Also, my downwind to base turn is identical to my base to final.



Regarding steep turns in the pattern. It was my understanding that a coordinated steady state turn at 60 degrees translates to a 2g load factor. Your stall speed goes up with the square root of the load factor. If your normal stall is 38mph, a load factor of 2 increases that to roughly 54 mph. If your speed at base to final is 60 mph that only leaves 6mph of wiggle room. That 6 mph goes away with just the slightest bit of additional back pressure.



Check out this web site: http://www.ufly.com/lessons/ground_maneuvers2.html 



Noel: I've used a slip to loose altitiude down to 20 ft and less. Once, when flying with my instructor,  I was about to abort a landing that I would have badly overshot when my instructor asked what I would do if my engine quit. I was way too high by my judgement (about 500 ft) to attempt to slip it in so I stupidly answerd a 360 turn. He took control and demonstrated slipping S turns over the runway all the way to the ground. My scariest experience in an airplane so far.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I slip (if I need to) to within  20-30-50 feet...I'm guessing at that  

altitude of course. I've come a long way from hanging on for dear  

life when my instructor would take over and slip it in, to doing the  

same thing myself, and loving it....this with full (20°) flaps. I  

always yank the shoulder straps a bit tighter before I do because  

pushing on the rudder pedal that hard always pushes me back in the  

seat if I don't...I used to grab one of the tubes above the panel for  

support. There is a guy who comes in over the trees (with a GA  

aircraft) at a nearby strip and slips it down to about 5-10 feet  

before letting up and landing...I'm not about to try to match him.



Lynn



On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Is there any one here who uses a slip to loose altitude to a point say

 twenty feet or so above touch down?  I've tried both flaps and the  

 slip.

 The flaps seem to work better but then again I have those floats  

 acting like

 a great pendulum and keeping the plane from slipping effectively.   

 Of course

 I also have a smallish rudder and no gap seals.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Aerobatics(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Hope I am not chiming too late

  

 I slip just about every time in my KF2 mostly because I try to position  myself with extra altitude and need to lose some, plus a right rudder slip  affords better vis. 

  

 I never use flap other than for take off, sometimes.  On landing I can  vary easily the slip on a as needed basis, much like throttle, but without being  dependent on your engine on a critical phase of flight.

  

 Since I slip so often,  have become comfortable slipping to just  before contact with terra firma.  

  

 The KF2 is one great slipping aircraft.

  

 Personally, I have never liked slipping with flaps.

  

 Please understand, not saying my way is better, just a way that I have  worked out over time that seems to work well.

  

 

  

 Dave KF2  

  

  

 In a message dated 2/13/2007 7:31:45 A.M. Central Standard Time,  lynnmatt(at)jps.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I slip    (if I need to) to within  20-30-50 feet...I'm guessing at that     

altitude of course. I've come a long way from hanging on for dear     

life when my instructor would take over and slip it in, to doing the     

same thing myself, and loving it....this with full (20°) flaps. I     

always yank the shoulder straps a bit tighter before I do because     

pushing on the rudder pedal that hard always pushes me back in the     

seat if I don't...I used to grab one of the tubes above the panel    for  

support. There is a guy who comes in over the trees (with a    GA  

aircraft) at a nearby strip and slips it down to about 5-10    feet  

before letting up and landing...I'm not about to try to match    him.



Lynn



On Feb 12, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Noel Loveys    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Is there any one here who uses a slip to loose altitude    to a point say

 twenty feet or so above touch down?  I've tried    both flaps and the  

 slip.

 The flaps seem to work better    but then again I have those floats  

 acting like

 a great    pendulum and keeping the plane from slipping effectively.   

    Of course

 I also have a smallish rudder and no gap    seals.



 Noel 	


 
	


  

  [quote][b]

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

In a message dated 2/12/2007 7:55:04 P.M. Central Standard Time,  noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Is there    any one here who uses a slip to loose altitude to a point say

twenty feet    or so above touch down?  I've tried both flaps and the slip.

The flaps    seem to work better but then again I have those floats acting like

a great    pendulum and keeping the plane from slipping effectively.  Of course

I    also have a smallish rudder and no gap  seals.



Noel 	


 

 Oh I forgot, gap seals for me made a huge difference...have them on  elevator and rudder try it youll love it!

  [quote][b]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

Noel,

I slip all the way down to about 5 ft off the ground, I remember back when doing my check ride and the guy said, I want to see a slip to land, this is not required, but I did a slip and straightened out about 20ft off, the guy said, I told you to slip to land, so I redid and held off to about 5 ft off the ground, his response was, much better.  



Now, let me explain something here, when coming in you decend, the yaw will go right, when in a left pattern you have right raw normally from the decent, the amount depends on your decent, mine is usually better than 800ft per minute(I do short approaches).  If you do a 30degree bank on a left turn you have a greater chance of being coordinated because you are use the putting in left rudder for the adverse yaw and such. Going to a greater bank turn will require you to put in more left rudder, to keep straight no bank you will need to put in left rudder, this is normal.



Now make right traffic, this is where it can get confusing, you have the normal left yaw from decending.  Now if you do the 30degree bank you can run yourself into trouble, because your use to a right rudder input for a right turn, but you look down and see the ball going left, so you have to input some left rudder, very unusual and different, in fact you are now in a skid, very dangerous.  If you increase your bank in the right traffic you will find that the ball will now be more centered, in my opinion more safe. Now if you go to a steeper bank you will find you need a slight right rudder into the turn.



What I'm trying to say here is in right traffic be very aware of your ball(what a pun) or you will end up in a skid(or an inflight ground loop) the tail will come around the outside.  In this case you need to be aware of spin awarness not how to handle a spin because you will be upside down and spining to the ground with no way to recover.  Big thing keep that ball in the center at all times.  except for landing and taking off.



Don't be keeping the ball in center on touch down or you will be squaling all over the runway, do it after lift off and you'll end up in the right side of the field.  will explain later if you need explainations of this one.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

At 11:38 PM 2/12/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It was my understanding that a coordinated steady state turn at 60 

degrees translates to a 2g load factor.


	


Only if you're maintaining altitude. It can be less if you descend, 

or more if you ascend during the turn.





Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

My situation is just the opposite because from inside the cockpit my prop 

(attached to a Subaru EA81) is rotating in a counter-clockwise direction, 

unlike with a conventional airplane engine.  This may very well be why I've 

never noticed this problem in flying a Cessna, for example, because I don't 

recall flying into any fields with a right-hand pattern.  It would be 

interesting to check it out sometime.  Next time up in the Kitfox I 

certainly intend to do some descending turns to the right to see if it's as 

difficult to stay coordinated as it is with a descending turn to the left.



Clem Nichols

Do Not Archive



---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

Yup, 



And when I come in on a short and do a steep turn base to final over the runway I don't pull up to flare until I have leveled out, that's when it gets real fun and a speedster makes it even funner. I can make that plane level out in a heartbeat, very fun and then I'm leveling and flairing and then landing. Usually there is nothing out there faster than me in the pattern.  Learned to do this stuff at a class C airport.  Talk about excitement.  Fly in and have a 737 on your butt with 3 miles out when you touch down. Not for the faint at heart let me say.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

When I was training in the C172 ( no further comment) my instructor had me

do slips right down to just about the final flare.  On the C it is not

recommended to slip while using flaps.  As a side note I could land that 172

pretty darn short using full flaps.  A couple or three hundred feet over a

fifty foot obstacle.  Roll out was also short.  I used to try to touch in

the middle of the intersecting runway so I cloud see how much room I used.

The C was short but not any where near the 'Fox on floats.  Once the floats

touch it doesn’t drift too far on step.  On the other hand It doesn't take a

calendar to time a take off either.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

I really like doing short approaches, today I was practicing all kinds of things, one of which is where I turn base to final up higher and short, while on the base to final I leave in the left bank and just put in right rudder and slip down to the runway, way fun.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Thanks mike:



My normal decent is around 500'/min.  Sometimes more ( hills and the like)

sometimes less (glassy water).



As I have said in earlier posts, close to the ground I have other things on

my mind other than watching the ball.  When I round out I like to keep my

eyes outside the plane.  Before rounding out I will usually grab one last

look at the ASI just to make sure I'm not too close to stall before flaring.



On take off the same thing is true.  Once in the air I usually drop my nose

a bit to build airspeed and when I start my climb out I'll set it up for

about 55-60 mph climb.



On floats the 'Fox requires you become real friendly with the rudder pedals.

So much so, that now I'm not aware of rudder inputs.  I do remember the

first few high speed taxis though so there are definitely rudder inputs

being made.



I also installed a trim tab on the plane because I found I would get back

from a couple of hours flying and my right foot would be just about numb and

my right ankle and leg would be very stiff.  The holes were already drilled

in the rudder so riveting a piece of 024 was very easy I used trial and

error to set the bend on the tab and it improved the way the plane behaved

quite a bit.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Coordinated turns to base and final

Noel,

To help you feel better, once you get close to flairing, you DO NOT want to have a centered ball, you look out the window and square the airplane to the landing spot, for you it's an emaginary line on your flight path.  Centering your ball on landing can and will put you into a ground loop if not corrected fast enough, and if using the round donuts you can wear them out faster than you should.  I have about 2000 landings on my tires and they still look good.



Next on take off you use right rudder for taking off to keep squared but on lift off I generally let the ball go to the right off center just a tad so that you don't end up flying off to the right, very desasterous when you have a parallel runway, like I do.  I see it all the time, a plane takes off and vears to the right, they are holding center on the ball, It's bad enough that the nose is pitched up and you can't see in front of you, to find out that tower is holding traffic on the right runway because people generally drift over to the right after taking off on the left runway.  I find that letting the ball go to the right a little and the nose of the airplane to yaw to the left puts the airplane on a nice straight path out off the runway.



hope this helps.

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Yes, that is fun!



Duane



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

I have the wheels and skis with the plane and the way things are going I may

never actually get to use them.  I am expecting to go back to work in Gander

in the near future.  If that happens I'll bring the plane over there and

using the hangar hoists changing over from floats to wheels and back will be

easy.



As it is right now I have to hoist the plane with block and tackle strung

form rafters in my garage.  Changing from floats to wheels is a couple of

hours work.  Changing back takes considerably longer.  It takes time to get

all the mounting pins in and get the floats properly squared, not to mention

levelling the plane laterally.



This all means that my next landing in the 'Fox on a runway or strip will be

my first.  Floats just fit this country for most of the year.  The problem

with doing a forced approach around here is how far will  you have to walk

to the next cabin (if you are on floats) on wheels you may well be SOL. 



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Lynn:



	Yes, you are cross controlling in the pattern when you do a slip

on approach.  A forward slip will have you crossing the most, a side

slip the least.  

	The critical factor here is air speed and proficiency.  What the

books that say never do this mean, is never do this until you have

gained enough proficiency to do it with the understanding that air speed

is involved and must be maintained at a level sufficiently above stall

to avoid one.  Now, normally when we do these on approach, we have an

excess of altitude, so that air speed is probably also a little high.

Stalling near the ground is the worst maneuver that we could do there,

and one of the best to practice at a safe altitude for the purpose of

both recognizing how they happen, and to practice the best recovery

techniques.  

	Since we are usually taught to fly coordinated first, the books

tend to emphasize this, and make it seem that one would never do

otherwise.  What they should say, is not to do any un-coordinated

maneuver near the ground unless you are proficient enough to understand

how to do so safely.   Some aircraft are better than others at doing

cross control maneuvers, and may be restricted to flap settings when

crossing.  

	Practice these at altitude so you understand how your plane

behaves before doing them on an approach.



Duane Rueb

--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Coordinated turns to base and final

Thanks for the response, Duane, and the answer...after a week went by  

without an answer, I was beginning to think nobody knew the answer,  

or that my deodorant had failed. : )

Regarding the forward slip, I got pretty used to this as my  

instructor would take over each and every time I came in high, and  

always (it seemed) put me on the down and forward side of the plane.  

After a few of these in my fully-see-through-door Kitfox, I got the  

message, and got the plane down to the proper altitude. I then got to  

practice them on my own and got used to the view, and the seat-of-the- 

pants feel for speed. He only had to do it one more time, and that  

was on my pre-checkride flight. We were coming in perfectly OK and he  

took over, slipped it down, then handed it back over to me. I asked  

him what was wrong, why he took over and he told me "I was just  

messing with ya"...seeing if I could get it back under control, which  

I did.  He loves the Kitfox so much, I think he was thinking this  

was going to be nearing the end of his rides in it, and wanted to  

have some more fun before it was over.



Lynn



On Feb 19, 2007, at 5:15 PM, Rueb, Duane wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu>



 Lynn:



 	Yes, you are cross controlling in the pattern when you do a slip

 on approach.  A forward slip will have you crossing the most, a side

 slip the least.



 Duane Rueb

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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