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unbelievable!!!
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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

>>The majority of  construction of this  (GADAHRS) you are about to fly  (behind) has been built by individuals I have no  knowledge of from an unidentified country other than the US of A.” <<

  

 Sorry, couldn't  resist.

  

 Do Not  Archive

     [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Thanks Bob, not in  IL until some time this spring or early summer or I would have started the 10 in  the fall...don't want to move any more for PA than I need  to...

  

 P

  	  Quote: 	
		        



Since you are in    IL, you may want to try Grov-Air in Indy.    I ran into the    same issues.   I wanted to go to Western PA RV Builders too and was    disappointed that he stopped conducting the basic class.   I    attended a session at Grov-Air in December.   Troy has built a RV6 and    is just finishing the wings on his RV-10.   Heâ€™s also assisting    several other builders in his shop as well.  He is also a former United    A&P.   

    

Bob   

    

do not    archive            

   

From:    owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:29    AM

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:    unbelievable!!!

   

       

In a message dated    2/13/07 9:44:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jesse(at)saintaviation.com    writes:

      

<<edited>>>   

 

      

By the way, I've been    in contact with the Western PA RV Builders for the past couple of    years--thanks to Dan Checkaway's web site...I'd planned to go to their    facility and do their workshop...apparently they have changed    directions.  

      

 

      

Now they are    basically working to help people begin and complete their RV project.     Originally it was my impression they were a workshop to try tools and for one    to begin the process of the Rear Stab...apparently they are now more of a    building shop and are booked through    2008...FYI.

      

 

      

Patrick

      

 

      

do not    archive

      

 

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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I'm not a tax attorney nor play one on TV but I'd think if Saint was a  charity then they would have an e mail address as a dot "org" and not a dot  com...as in company for profit...just a though...Jesse are you folks a  501c3?

 [quote]   Seems this topic comes up every month or so. Yes,    we point our fingers at lousy worksmanship at Oshkosh than we point our    fingers at RV-10 rockets on E-bay and each time it brings up the commitee on    ending the building for profit.

    Most of us agree that having people build    this strictly for profit was never the intention of the EAA 50 years ago,    when they fought for the privilege to allow a person to build a    plane as a hobby, my guess that "for profit" never was even conceived in the    minds of any of those involved.

   Now, about pointing fingers at those in Florida,    specifically Jesse and his "for profit", I did a survey with many of my    friends, mostly all did missionary work out of the US sometime in their lives    and asked- if it is against the rules to build something for profit, yet some    organization does it for profit with the intent of buildiong skills of    Equadorian laborers and the profits go to support and finance a missionary    ministry- does that make it right?  Before I respond with the answer I'll    remind many of the goals of some organizations to get kits and bring them to    schools to teach students the skills involved in building a plane. Last I    heard the planes were sold and the proceeds went to support the school to    continue the program.. hmm that goes against the rules and should be stopped!!    or should it?

   Well to answer the question, Jesse and Saint    Aviation are doing the right thing, they are not doing this for self profit    but for a charity and the benefit of others. Yes there is a gray in the black    and white of the rules and just as I would consider going through a red light    (looking both ways first of course) and speeding to get my pregnant wife    who is about to have a baby, to the hospital, there are those exceptions to    the rules- even if someone thought there wasn't, until they themselves are in    that situation. 

   Now for my personal selfishness- I loath the "for    profits" out there. They are not only doing it for their own benefit,     like the 2bums group and the unethical builders and companies taking    money and having no morals for anyone but themselves, they are killing my    hopes to afford a plane. Why? 225K for a plane? that means registration in    California on this aircraft goes up (value is not based on my costs but the    going rate on trade-a-plane), there is the insurance issues of course and the    reasons we all are upset about.

   Let's point our fingers at the unethical builders    and leave the rare builders that participate in this forum and add value in    the form of positive comments(ie Jesse) alone. I agree that "for profit" will    ultimately hurt those who want it as a hobby, as it was initially designed    for, but stopping the few will ultimately result in rules that will harm the    rest. 

   Let Van's and the commitee figure out how they    will do this and hope the way is to penalize those who are building for profit    without a good reason for it (retired and like building, charity, schools,    etc) in the form of fines that goes to paying for improving the    experimental category so those who are honestly doing it can benefit from    those are aren't!

   tide box off

    

   Do not archive

    

   Pascal

   [quote]     ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

David, great challenge to the group.  

   

Several years ago I had a difficulty issuing a pilot certificate to a known drug dealer. There was no provision - Not To.   It took time but Paragraph U was added to the 8710 Application to trip them up on falsification of a federal document.  Several ideas come to mind.  I will forward them offline to you for consideration next week.  We are all extending our sincerely heartfelt best wishes at a fair and productive session.  

     

John Cox 

 

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:23 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

Michael,  

   

Most of the work that we think we can do should be finished by this summer.  Implementation will take another year or so after we submit our recommendations.  

   

One point that has been accepted by the committee is that it is much more practical to change orders and guidance than it is to change FARs.  So 21.191(g) probably won't change.  

   

Another point is that much of the problem exists because FAA inpsectors and DARs don't have the ability to deny an application without overwhelming evidence.  A project can look pretty fishy and still be within the rules as written.  Everyone knows it stinks but the orders don't say what to do about it.  That's an area that will most likely change:  authority for those issuing the certificates to use the judgement and experience that allowed them to become inspectors in the first place.    

   

    

As we've just witnessed in this short exchange, as soon as a rule is adopted or even proposed, those with ill will find a way around it.  The inspectors need to be able to adapt just as quickly, which historically is difficult for governments to do.  It seems to me that a clever and concise solution is possible, but it hasn't shown itself yet.  

    

   

    

Dave Saylor  

AirCrafters LLC  

140 Aviation Way  

Watsonville, CA   

831-722-9141  

831-750-0284 CL  

www.AirCraftersLLC.com  

    

   

      

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:55 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

Dave,  

   

  Can you share the groups progress?  Any impending recommendations or timelines for implementation.  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:26 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

  

   

   

Dan,  

   

 >> how can the FAA be expected to review the employment condition of every person that applies for an airworthiness certificate?  <<  

   

They probably can't, and I don't think they want to.  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >and how much additional time will be added to the review/paperwork process? <<  

   
	


Well, somebody needs to be looking closer.  That will take more time but hopefully not much more.  

   

 >>... I personally do not think that by having vendors on the committee, we the builders are being looked out for. <<  

   

The committee co-chairs, Frank Paskiewicz (FAA), Van, and EAA's Earl Lawrence are tremendous builder's advocates.  I hope I am too.  There is a great respect for the tradition of homebuilding and the consequences of continuing the present course of action are not lost on us.  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  > who else is on the panel <<  

   
	


Kim Barnette, FAA Flight Standards Service, AFS-300  

   

Joe Bartels, Lancair  

   

Mike Brown, FAA Flight Standards Service, AFS-800  

   

Stephen Buczynski, FAA Aircraft Certification, Van Nuys MIDO  

   

Paul Fiduccia, Small Aircraft Manufacturers Association (SAMA)  

   

Joe Gauthier, Manufacturing DAR  

   

Paul Greer, Airworthiness Law Branch, AGC-210   

   

Donald Lausman, FAA Airworthiness Certification Branch, AIR-230  

   

Dave Saylor, AirCrafters LLC  

   

Rick Schramek, Epic Aircraft  

   

Matt Tomsheck, FAA Aircraft Certification, Cleveland MIDO  

   

Mikael Via, Glasair  

   

Brian Whitehead, Transport Canada Civil Aviation   

   

Jeremy Monnett, Sonex Aircraft    

   

    

I welcome any input and will take it all in as we develop our recomendations.  Of course we all have a stake in the game but I think this is a very well assembled group, well suited for the task at hand.  We are meeting for the third time next week in Bend, OR.  

    

   

    

Dave Saylor  

AirCrafters LLC  

140 Aviation Way  

Watsonville, CA   

831-722-9141  

831-750-0284 CL  

www.AirCraftersLLC.com  

  

   

   

   

   

   

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

John Starn just sent me a good overhead placard for back seaters in a Harmon Rocket.  “Everything aft of this sign is for baggage, Act like it.”  

   

Still waiting to hear if the meeting in Bend is open to the public.  I am attending state meetings with the Oregon Aviation Board and the Oregon Pilots Association as Legislative Affairs.  

     

John Cox 

 

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor

 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:15 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >The majority of construction of this  (GADAHRS) you are about to fly  (behind) has been built by individuals I have no knowledge of from an unidentified country other than the US of A.” <<  

   
	


Sorry, couldn't resist.  

   

Do Not Archive  [quote]   [b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I  would beg to differ, I am very aware of the build to profit and know several  individuals doing it, and am approaching the whole scenario very cautiously. The  only one I was speaking for was NWPA as I know them personally, and how they  conduct business. The other shops I know of are write a check and send email  pictures with hands for updates. So no, I am not wide eyed or all trusting, but  on the other hand I really do not see an issue with someone building a plane for  another person. What I do have an issue with is that someone that paid for the  construction, and not participating, even with another previous build claiming  the repairman's certificate. Let me repeat that, I do personally do not have an  issue with someone building for profit, as long as the buyer does not get the  repairman cert, in other words the aircraft must be found airworthy at the time  of certification, and it must be maintained by the person who built it, or a  qualified shop.

 My  opinion only, and no I am not naive just aware of what everyone has done to bend  the rules occasionally to met their individual needs.

 Dan

 [quote]   

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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Not true, as anyone can register any address  extension they want, IE pay the fee and the name is yours, unless someone else  already owns it.

 Dan

 [quote]   

   --

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Would you then also agree that a "buyer" should be restricted from winning  a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bronze Lindy at OSH, as a  very true life example...? ?  KABONG  Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

While I have strong feelings against those people who have  commercialized the RV building process to the point that they are finding a  buyer and then custom building an RV from start to finish for a particular buyer  I have no issue with builders who buy a kit and build it to the stage of being  ready to hang an engine, install a panel and do the interior and then sell the  kit OR agree to finish out the kit for someone else to buy.

  

 The FAA rule is not violated in any way, shape or form if  the intent of the builder is to build the kit for education or recreation and  that includes missionaries in Ecuador who are helping to educate new Christians  to aircraft building.  I currently am helping complete an RV-8 kit that  another builder spent years getting it within 10% of being ready for the engine,  panel, interior.  There is no doubt that the original builder was doing it  for education and/or recreation and the FAA rule does not forbid the  compellation from this stage by others helping.  If so, all the panel  builders, interior builders, and engine builders would have to shut  down.

  

 Just my 2 cents worth.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - Flying RV-10

 N65RV - RV-6A Sold (After 70% of RV-10 built)

  

 To add to the mix, I have a friend who is retired and he  had built 6 or 7

      RV-6 and -7's because he  enjoys doing it and needs something to do.   He

      doesn't make much on them, but he keeps  building because he enjoys it.  He

      builds  planes because he can, but I don't think he is abusing the rules.   He

      is doing it as recreation, which definitely  fits within the intent and

      letter of the  law.  The litmus test that you mention would obviously  cause

      him unjust  problems.

      

       

      I know some of you are pointing your finger  at me without knowing what we

      really are  doing.  That's fine.

       

      

      Do not  archive.

      

       

      Jesse Saint

       

      Saint Aviation, Inc.



  

   [quote][b]

etekberg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Who/where in Oklahoma? Thanks

 -Eric

 do not archive



 

 On 2/13/07, John W. Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		     

Thank you for respectfully withdrawing your observation.  The RV-10 is being mass produced in South Africa, Russian, the  P.I., Central America and yes in Oklahoma.  The loophole has a truck running through it and the FAA has convened a committee to close the door or give approval on those current actions.  Your answer will be forthcoming quite soon.  

  

Just a rhetorical question for the masses.  Just how many RV-10s beyond ONE should a builder be allowed to complete before the group yells "Foul"?  I guess the silence is a compelling answer.  

  

The "For hire" boys are alive and well buying RV-10 kits. 

  

Here is the final question.  Who finds it inappropriate for a manufacturer to ship a second, third, fourth or fifth kit to those repeat builders?  

  

Bill, you should be hearing soon from a few of those builders (predators) about their product offering.  

   

John Cox 

 #40600  

  

Do not Archive

    

 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of William Condon

Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:00 AM 

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: unbelievable!!!

 

  

Given that the below is all true, one cannot have any sympathy for the two doctors involved or the former owner of the company.  Not only did were the doctors displaying an unbelievable level of foolishness (by giving away huge sums of money to a possible crook), but they were directly threatening the experimental building community, as a whole.  

  

I say that because this apparently involved the 'for-hire' building of an experimental aircraft – since the doctors didn't know anything about the scam, they obviously hadn't invested any of their own labor in the building of the aircraft.  Of course, to get an airworthiness certificate for this aircraft, the people would have to defraud the FAA.  And, when people are out there defrauding the FAA, this will eventual lead to them (the FAA) eating away at the public's right to build its own airplanes.     

  

Unless, of course, there is a loophole that I don't know about (where one can pay to have kit airplanes professionally built) – if that is the case, I respectfully withdraw my comments (except for the foolishness / crook part, which still stands).  

  

Bill C. 

Dream – 100%, everything else – 0% 

US  military stationed overseas until 2009 

 

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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com



	


	


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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I definitely agree that a buyer is not a builder, and that  there should be another category for them to show in especially the prestigious  builders awards.

 Dan



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN  STARN

Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:17 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:  unbelievable!!!

 

 Would you then also agree that a "buyer" should be restricted from winning  a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bronze Lindy at OSH, as a  very true life example...? ?  KABONG  Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

John, 

Am I misunderstanding something here or are you planning to do the very same thing that you suggest the FAA should step in and legislate?  I though I heard you say this before which is why I was taken aback when you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these "hired guns."  Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage because you have been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long?Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 

   

Return-Path: <owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com> Tue Feb 13 17:26:51 2007---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------X-Rcpt-To: <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>  

Dan, you are right there are great shops.  But respectfully, you have not seen the Build Assists which allow the owner to drink coffee (hour after hour, days on end, week after week) and watch while the paid staff does the work.  Then at the end of the day, they prep the “Builder” in how to explain what was done. 

  

I don’t consider you naïve, I just think you are a bit Wide Eyed and innocent in the ways of 51% violations in today’s lucrative market. 

  

By the way, I have every intention of setting up shop just as soon as the rules are clarified.  I do have a dog in this hunt and would be just as happy if the Build Assist required FAA monitoring for violation and financial penalties.  When going into a street fight, you don’t bring a knife when the other guy has a knife you bring a shotgun – Sean Connery. 

   

John 

Do not Archive

    

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:03 AMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!

 

  

Knowing everyone from down there, this could not be farther from the truth. The NWPA shop is there to give new builders an introduction to metal kit plane building, specifically the RV series. They are great people, and do not bend the rules, they help the new builder complete the emp, and give the builder a solid foundation in correct building practices and the builder gets to try multiple tools while under instruction. But to make it clear, it is the builder that does the construction, the shop will HELP, not do, with the priming and deburring but the builder is doing the majority of the work. This shop is well organized and highly recommended by other builders in the area. This is a great way to complete an emp in 7 days and get a solid footing to finish your project. 

Remember, I do not have an affiliation with them, just know them from being in the area, and highly respecting their efforts for the building community. 

Dan 

N289DT 

 

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owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I believe there currently exists another category.  Its where buyers can get Cessnas, Pipers, Columbias, Cirrus's, Diamonds etc. without having to build them themselves or know much about them.  These companies had to jump through hoops to certify both the aircraft itself and their facilities/ manufacturing.  It seems to me unfair that they have to jump through all those hoops and someone else can come in and compete with them without having to do any of that.  If someone wants to build and sell RV10s they can.  Modify the design a bit and get it certified under a different name.  Then get the manufacturing facility certified also.  Don't forget some of the above companies were experimental aircraft operations  not too long ago.  By the time all this is done the RV10 look alike will be about 400K in line with all the other aircraft above.  The intent of the experimental category is meant for someone wanting to build their own aircraft not someone wanting to buy a prebuilt aircraft at a lower cost.  Under this scenario there is nothing to stop a shop from cutting corners and putting out very poor quality aircraft so they can make more profits.  Who is going to know ?  The customer?   No oversight of the shop whatsoever.  

  

 Niko

 40188

 do not archive

  

 

 

 ---

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I believe the fuzzy line is between the "builder assist" shops that have 

different levels of builder participation.   I suppose there are some shops 

on one end of the spectrum that have the "builder" show up on a couple of 

weekends, put a rivet gun in his hand, take some pictures to prove he was 

educated and instructed and built the plane - then send him home so he 

doesn't get in the way of the folks building the plane.   They put the 

builders name on the data plate and he goes to the FAA and gets a repairman 

certificate.  Clearly wrong but what do I know.



Then there are the shops on the other end of the spectrum doing it the right 

way - instructing and educating while the builder actually participates in 

building the plane to a degree that satisfies the 51% rule (wish I 

understood the rule).  That works for me.



The rest of the shops are some where in the middle. Maybe we'll get some 

guidance from the FAA (sure and I'm from the IRS and I'm here to help you).  

Hopefully Jesse will enlighten us after the government folks put their 

blessing on his operation.



The folks cranking out planes for sale with no pretense of being a "build 

assist" shop or doing it for eduaction and/or recreation are clearly in a 

category all to themselves.  I believe these guys can be identified by the 

"facts and circumstances" of their operation.

Mark

N410MR





[quote]From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR(at)wernerco.com>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: unbelievable!!!

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:55:55 -0500



I definitely agree that a buyer is not a builder, and that there should

be another category for them to show in especially the prestigious

builders awards.

Dan



   _____



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN

Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:17 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: unbelievable!!!

Would you then also agree that a "buyer" should be restricted from

winning a "Builders" award for workmanship....like the Bronze Lindy at

OSH, as a very true life example...? ?  KABONG  Do Not Archive



	---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

I am the first that I know of that took a career sabbatical course change, attended A & P school in my time off at 53. Took a job with a World class Regional Airline to learn ropes with 20 and 25 year veterans (who mostly are younger than I)_ and intends to take my 23 years as a DPE and 30+ years as an instructor to a new arena.  Living in the heart of Kit Aviation helps with Oregon Aero, EI, VANS, Lancair, Mountain High, OP Technologies, Epic, Max Viz, Artex, UPS now Garmin.  

   

I waited a decade for the FAA to change the 60 year old “You are Dead as a Professional Airline Pilot” rule.  

   

I intend to serve as an A & P mechanic with IA designation – Long Term, become a respected EAA tech advisor for decades and gain the wisdom and respect of someone like Joe Gauthier.  I intend to construct and manage a Builder Assist Facility that is world class in scope and is compliant with the Next Generation of rule interpretation.  Yes I was spurred on by all of the former Lancair Employees who without A & P certificates would ask six figures to produce those beautiful flying machines.  

   

I have more than fifty frustrated career airline mechanics (from a pool of over 400) who would love to moonlight on an hourly basis and bring their World Class experience in Hydraulics, Avionics, Electrical Distribution, Sheet Metal, Composites, Interiors and yes Topcoat Painting to the OBAM world.  Dick VanGrunsven does not see the benefit in what Joe Bartels has accomplished with Lancair Factory Assist… so be it. Risk Aversion has its merits.  

   

If you want to build it in your garage by yourself, so be it.  Post it on Tim’s site so we can all enjoy in your dream.  

   

5,000 aircraft build.  Hit me over the head.  I am just not going to do it by circumventing the intent of the Regs.  Will I build for solely for a paycheck?  No way, would I love to assist scores of others, You bet.  Have I seen what a few reckless individuals can do to scores of builders, not yet completed, when they skew the insurance underwriters guidelines, you bet. Do I encourage High Performance Proficiency Training like Deem’s presented. YOU BET.  

   

Where we go from here is totally dependent on what you as builders ask of your committee, respond to the NPRM and tell your elected officials what you want.  You are going to get it your way or you are going to get screwed. The laws of physics acknowledge that this mass is growing and IS in motion.  Before I invest the hundreds of thousands in the infrastructure, the dust from that whiner in Florida is going to need a long-term published resolution.  So far, I have about 6,000 hours invested in Living my Dream. It began long before VAN made that first Prototype flight in the RV-10.  The RV-10 is just the finest platform to realize my dream.  

   

The road traveled includes a Christen Eagle wood, tube and fabric project, a composite Lancair project and now the best of all worlds the RV-10.  And yes my 60’x48’x14’ hangar was just completed last week so it is time to challenge Deems’ prognosis of a completion date of 2020 before kit 1,000 is finished.  

   

William you are mistaken if you think I encourage hired gun OBAM production.  I envision something more lofty like what Dan Checkoway has done after building only his first kit. He is now an Expert, an Author, an Instructor and is “Helping others Live their Dreams”.  You would be in error to confuse me with the other John in Oklahoma.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis

 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:38 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

John,  

Am I misunderstanding something here or are you planning to do the very same thing that you suggest the FAA should step in and legislate?  I though I heard you say this before which is why I was taken aback when you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these "hired guns."  Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage because you have been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long?

 

 

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  

      [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: unbelievable!!!

Oh yeh, do I need to remind all of you RV-10 builders that you are the youngest, strongest most respected 800 pound Gorillas on the world’s playground.  I just want to live quietly being a Great Silver in my Ole Age in the lush, rich Rain Forest of the Pacific NW.  

   

Happy Valentines… treat your partner right tonight.  Celebrate 5,000 flying RVs - together.  

     

John Cox 

 the Turbanator #40600   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W. Cox

 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:02 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

I am the first that I know of that took a career sabbatical course change, attended A & P school in my time off at 53. Took a job with a World class Regional Airline to learn ropes with 20 and 25 year veterans (who mostly are younger than I)_ and intends to take my 23 years as a DPE and 30+ years as an instructor to a new arena.  Living in the heart of Kit Aviation helps with Oregon Aero, EI, VANS, Lancair, Mountain High, OP Technologies, Epic, Max Viz, Artex, UPS now Garmin.  

   

I waited a decade for the FAA to change the 60 year old “You are Dead as a Professional Airline Pilot” rule.  

   

I intend to serve as an A & P mechanic with IA designation – Long Term, become a respected EAA tech advisor for decades and gain the wisdom and respect of someone like Joe Gauthier.  I intend to construct and manage a Builder Assist Facility that is world class in scope and is compliant with the Next Generation of rule interpretation.  Yes I was spurred on by all of the former Lancair Employees who without A & P certificates would ask six figures to produce those beautiful flying machines.  

   

I have more than fifty frustrated career airline mechanics (from a pool of over 400) who would love to moonlight on an hourly basis and bring their World Class experience in Hydraulics, Avionics, Electrical Distribution, Sheet Metal, Composites, Interiors and yes Topcoat Painting to the OBAM world.  Dick VanGrunsven does not see the benefit in what Joe Bartels has accomplished with Lancair Factory Assist… so be it. Risk Aversion has its merits.  

   

If you want to build it in your garage by yourself, so be it.  Post it on Tim’s site so we can all enjoy in your dream.  

   

5,000 aircraft build.  Hit me over the head.  I am just not going to do it by circumventing the intent of the Regs.  Will I build for solely for a paycheck?  No way, would I love to assist scores of others, You bet.  Have I seen what a few reckless individuals can do to scores of builders, not yet completed, when they skew the insurance underwriters guidelines, you bet. Do I encourage High Performance Proficiency Training like Deem’s presented. YOU BET.  

   

Where we go from here is totally dependent on what you as builders ask of your committee, respond to the NPRM and tell your elected officials what you want.  You are going to get it your way or you are going to get screwed. The laws of physics acknowledge that this mass is growing and IS in motion.  Before I invest the hundreds of thousands in the infrastructure, the dust from that whiner in Florida is going to need a long-term published resolution.  So far, I have about 6,000 hours invested in Living my Dream. It began long before VAN made that first Prototype flight in the RV-10.  The RV-10 is just the finest platform to realize my dream.  

   

The road traveled includes a Christen Eagle wood, tube and fabric project, a composite Lancair project and now the best of all worlds the RV-10.  And yes my 60’x48’x14’ hangar was just completed last week so it is time to challenge Deems’ prognosis of a completion date of 2020 before kit 1,000 is finished.  

   

William you are mistaken if you think I encourage hired gun OBAM production.  I envision something more lofty like what Dan Checkoway has done after building only his first kit. He is now an Expert, an Author, an Instructor and is “Helping others Live their Dreams”.  You would be in error to confuse me with the other John in Oklahoma.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

          

  

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis

 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:38 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: unbelievable!!!  

  

   

John,  

Am I misunderstanding something here or are you planning to do the very same thing that you suggest the FAA should step in and legislate?  I though I heard you say this before which is why I was taken aback when you suggested that the FAA should "clamp down" on these "hired guns."  Is your version of the "shotgun" to offer you advantage because you have been and are accustomed to dealing with the FAA for so long?

 

 

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  [quote]   [b]

docrw

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 1
Location: washington

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: unbelievable!!!

Hi Guys,

I found this forum on the net today which mentioned me buying this RV-10, which by the way never happened.  

What happened is I was looking at it and back paged and there was a glitch and it ended up doing a BIN.  I worked it out with the seller and all was resolved.  

So put it to rest that nobody bought the plane for $100K with a V-8 engine in it, and I hope no one was that silly to try it. 

David Hiatt

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