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P-mags and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: P-mags and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

At 01:43 AM 2/21/2007 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Frank,



Help me out here, if that isn't a "failure", just what would you call 

it?  In my book, any mechanical screw up that causes an unplanned landing 

sure fits the definition of a failure.


	


   No doubt there WAS a SYSTEM failure. But accurate

   investigation and diagnosis of root cause extends

   FAR beyond what usually happens when unhappy events

   in aviation spark public discussions.



   It's inarguable that the pilot perceived a reason

   to make an off-field landing. Anecdotally, we

   understand that the ignition SYSTEM was misbehaving.



   What do we know about how the pilot reacted to his/her

   perceptions? What did your instructor tell you to

   do when the engine is running badly? Were there not

   words suggesting that turning the mags off one at

   a time would help you isolate a recalcitrant magneto?

   Is it not reasonable to expect that a similar

   investigation would have been useful in this event?

   What do you think the probability is that both

   Emagair products became unserviceable on the

   same tank full of fuel? What do we know about the

   post flight discovery of facts?



   I think the major point to be considered here

   is that the general public is very quick to launch

   lengthy and heated debate on a variety of non-news

   items reported in the media. I say "non-news" because

   while the stories may accurately record a happening,

   the reporter rarely knows diddly-squat about the

   simple-ideas that underlie the story. They're prone

   to rely on the words of others who are probably

   as ignorant of facts and understanding as the reporter

   is.



   In Chapter 17 of the 'Connection I've suggested

   that the pilot subsystem is subordinate only to

   the airframe in importance for having a happy

   ending to an aviation experience. Those of us who

   have lived and worked in the aviation venue most

   of our careers are skeptical of the notion that

   the aircraft featured in this story suffered an

   ignition system failure that would be expected

   to force an off-field landing. But lacking

   more data, the best we can offer is a considered

   opinion as to PROBABILITY based on our past

   experience. Opinions not founded in simple-ideas

   and offered by individuals who cannot teach

   the significance of those ideas are suspect. This

   is where the differences between teachers and

   propagandists become strikingly obvious.



   So before we get out the big brush and red paint

   and write ACCIDENT INDUCING FAILURE across E-Magair's

   reputation, let us take the time on THIS LIST

   to conduct careful consideration of facts.

   It's unlikely that you'll get any facts from

   folks who were not there and did not put their

   hands on hardware. So no matter what pot is

   boiling on any other List, let us do the science

   (and/or rely on others who ARE doing the science)

   lest we give rise to invariably poor recommendations

   that arise from equally poor conclusions.



   Bob . . .

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: P-mags and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

In a message dated 2/21/2007 8:01:18 A.M. Central Standard Time,  nuckollsr(at)cox.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  So    before we get out the big brush and red paint

   and write    ACCIDENT INDUCING FAILURE across E-Magair's

   reputation, let us    take the time on THIS LIST

   to conduct careful consideration of    facts.

   It's unlikely that you'll get any facts    from

   folks who were not there and did not put    their

   hands on hardware. So no matter what pot    is

   boiling on any other List, let us do the    science

   (and/or rely on others who ARE doing the    science)

   lest we give rise to invariably poor    recommendations

   that arise from equally poor    conclusions.



   Bob . . .

	


 

Good Morning 'Lectric Bob,

  

 I realize we are not supposed to post Me Too or other confirmation  messages, but you have hit the nail so squarely that I just cannot resist.

  

 Great post!

  

 Do Not Archive!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



 [b]Check out free AOL[/b]  [quote][b]

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ktlkrn(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: P-mags and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

The gentleman this happened to is a good friend. I  received the call that he has went down and all was safe.

  

 I also have dual Pmags on my plane and have had no  problems at all in 185 hours. After he was home safe, I asked him if he had  switched between Mags to see if he could isolate the problem. He did not and  said he didn't think of it.

  

 I agree that the chance of both failing is very  slim. Switching each mag off individually should be part of your check list if a  problem arrises. I personally don't power them off on ground run but only do the  L/R/Both checks.

  

 As Bob said don't paint Emagair with such a wide  brush. These guys are responsive to our needs and have never denied or made any  effort to hide an issue. I continue to have 100% confidence in this system. As  with any aspect of flying, it is critical to know what to do when something goes  wrong.

  

 Darwin N. Barrie

 Chandler AZ

 RV7 N717EE

   [quote][b]

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Bill Schlatterer

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: P-mags and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

Darwin, just  curious, if he had powered it down but  not grounded it, would the timing from the self power generator be the same or  different?  Since there are really three modes,  1) powered 2)  unpowered and 3) grounded and really off,....... would the timing revert to some  fixed mechanical advance in the power off but not grounded  mode?

  

 I have one P-Mag and a Slick but not yet flying so I am  curious?

  

 Thanks Bill S



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darwin  N. Barrie

Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:25 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: P-mags  and the RV-7 Off Field Landing

 

 The gentleman this happened to is a good friend. I  received the call that he has went down and all was safe.

  

 I also have dual Pmags on my plane and have had no  problems at all in 185 hours. After he was home safe, I asked him if he had  switched between Mags to see if he could isolate the problem. He did not and  said he didn't think of it.

  

 I agree that the chance of both failing is very  slim. Switching each mag off individually should be part of your check list if a  problem arrises. I personally don't power them off on ground run but only do the  L/R/Both checks.

  

 As Bob said don't paint Emagair with such a wide  brush. These guys are responsive to our needs and have never denied or made any  effort to hide an issue. I continue to have 100% confidence in this system. As  with any aspect of flying, it is critical to know what to do when something goes  wrong.

  

 Darwin N. Barrie

 Chandler AZ

 RV7 N717EE

[quote]



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