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billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

There have been several folks from the Matronics list that have been following the activities of building my own RV10, air data computer, primary flight display, Garmin interface computer, and a Crossbow gyro. All of these components have been integrated into my panel which is IFR legal with lots of innovation for cross country travel.

   

  I took full advantage of every skill I have ever learned in my life to make this happen but mostly engineer, programmer, and pilot. It has been wonderful to lay in bed thinking of ways to make the flight experience more enjoyable and safer then implement the idea the next day.

   

  Now its time for Sara and I to make a second run at creating a business. The first was packaged telecommunication software for DEC computers from 1978-1986.

   

  The prototype panel has been flying since August and I have been steadily making improvements and  productizing the components since then. Just last week we finished the first production components for another Watsonville,CA  RV-10 panel and its time to open the doors to our new business.

   

  Our web site went live this evening. We loaded it with features and (hopefully) good description of what the panel could do for you. Note that from initial concept the panel was approached as a system design instead of just another box. Without this approach the many good ideas that arose from who knows where could not have been implemented and its these ideas that make it a great panel. Check it out at: www.wtdaviationtechnology.com

   

  Call if you like. I am always interested in suggestions or discussing ideas. If you will consider doing business with us then I will do the best I can for you.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

   N939SB, flying

  bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com (bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com)

  831.345.3440

   

   

   

   

 [quote][b]

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Congratulations Bill. I know it has been a long road pulling all this together.



On 2/23/07, Bill DeRouchey <billderou(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   There have been several folks from the Matronics list that have been

 following the activities of building my own RV10, air data computer, primary

 flight display, Garmin interface computer, and a Crossbow gyro. All of these

 components have been integrated into my panel which is IFR legal with lots

 of innovation for cross country travel.

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Bill,Congratulations!  It is encouraging to see continued innovation in the aircraft/avionics arena.  If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track record.Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------0.93 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message There have been several folks from the Matronics list that have been following the activities of building my own RV10, air data computer, primary flight display, Garmin interface computer, and a Crossbow gyro. All of these components have been integrated into my panel which is IFR legal with lots of innovation for cross country travel.

  

 I took full advantage of every skill I have ever learned in my life to make this happen but mostly engineer, programmer, and pilot. It has been wonderful to lay in bed thinking of ways to make the flight experience more enjoyable and safer then implement the idea the next day.

  

 Now its time for Sara and I to make a second run at creating a business. The first was packaged telecommunication software for DEC computers from 1978-1986.

  

 The prototype panel has been flying since August and I have been steadily making improvements and productizing the components since then. Just last week we finished the first production components for another Watsonville,CA  RV-10 panel and its time to open the doors to our new business.

  

 Our web site went live this evening. We loaded it with features and (hopefully) good description of what the panel could do for you. Note that from initial concept the panel was approached as a system design instead of just another box. Without this approach the many good ideas that arose from who knows where could not have been implemented and its these ideas that make it a great panel. Check it out at: www.wtdaviationtechnology.com

  

 Call if you like. I am always interested in suggestions or discussing ideas. If you will consider doing business with us then I will do the best I can for you.

  

 Bill DeRouchey

 N939SB, flying

 bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com (bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com)

 831.345.3440

  

  

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R --> http://forums.matronics.com============= 	
    [quote][b]

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Hi William-

  Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.

   

  Why is it so expensive?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

  I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all  the high end features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.

   

  We started with the best components available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for  $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!

   

  All the suggested panels are FAA legal.

   

  Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the back.

   

  We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note  that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of PFD problems. 

   

  Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.

   

  The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our customers  to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.

   

  Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of  the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.

   

  My criteria for purchase  was/is:

              1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability

              2. Published acuracy specifications.

              3. Experienced with aircraft  applications

              4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit

              5. Price

   

  Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.

   

  Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has moved on.

   

  Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.

   

  Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.

   

  What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future improvements?

   

  I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or  not.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com

   

    



William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:



  [quote]Bill,



Congratulations!  It is encouraging to see continued innovation in the aircraft/avionics arena.  



If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experimental system that does not yet  have any track record.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



    ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------

0.93 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers

0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message



  There have been several folks from the Matronics list that have been following the activities of building my own RV10, air data computer, primary flight display, Garmin interface computer, and a Crossbow gyro. All of these components have been integrated into my panel which is IFR legal with lots of innovation for cross country travel.

   

  I took full advantage of every skill I have ever learned in my life to make this happen but mostly engineer, programmer, and pilot. It has been wonderful to lay in bed thinking of ways to make the flight  experience more enjoyable and safer then implement the idea the next day.

   

  Now its time for Sara and I to make a second run at creating a business. The first was packaged telecommunication software for DEC computers from 1978-1986.

   

  The prototype panel has been flying since August and I have been steadily making improvements and productizing the components since then. Just last week we finished the first production components for another Watsonville,CA  RV-10 panel and its time to open the doors to our new business.

   

  Our web site went live this evening. We loaded it with features and (hopefully) good description of what the panel could do for you. Note that from initial concept the panel was approached as a system design instead of just another box. Without this approach the many good ideas that arose from who knows where could not have been implemented and its [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying behind his OP Tech screens.  

   

Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10  

  

     

Hi William-  

    

Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.  

    

   

    

Why is it so expensive?  

    

   

    

I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.  

    

   

    

We started with the best components available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!  

    

   

    

All the suggested panels are FAA legal.  

    

   

    

Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the back.  

    

   

    

We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of PFD problems.   

    

   

    

Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.  

    

   

    

The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.  

    

   

    

Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.  

    

   

    

My criteria for purchase was/is:  

    

            1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability  

    

            2. Published acuracy specifications.  

    

            3. Experienced with aircraft applications  

    

            4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit  

    

            5. Price  

    

   

    

Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.  

    

   

    

Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has moved on.  

    

   

    

Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.  

    

   

    

Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.  

    

   

    

What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future improvements?  

    

   

    

I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not.  

    

   

    

Bill DeRouchey  

    

N939SB, flying  

    

bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com  

    

   

      



 

 William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:  

  

  [quote]  

Bill,

 

 If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track record.

 

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/   	  Quote: 	
		   	


  [b]

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

John,Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."  I'll make sure to update my signature with that title!  Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. " have to do with an EFIS?  I always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily erect after power up.  None (cheap, expensive, certified or not) will do anything about “unreported icing, strong headwinds” or lessen you reliance on the “use of corrective lenses”—those features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000 price differential.  Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR."  From the FAA’s perspective there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS.  All these units, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Grand Rapids, Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros.  Some of these gyros are better than others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" and another "IFR."  All indications are that WTC will be using the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

  

  

Bill, 

  

Thanks again for the information.  I’ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or OSH.  Let us know when you have an installation manual and wiring diagrams on your website.  I assume you will be using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the autopilot? 

  

 

 William - "our Devil’s Advocate"http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/    

Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying behind his OP Tech screens. 

  

Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate. 

   

John Cox #40600 

    

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRoucheySent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.comSubject: re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

 

   

Hi William-

  

Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.

  

 

  

Why is it so expensive?

  

 

  

I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.

  

 

  

We started with the best components available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!

  

 

  

All the suggested panels are FAA legal.

  

 

  

Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the back.

  

 

  

We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of PFD problems. 

  

 

  

Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.

  

 

  

The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.

  

 

  

Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.

  

 

  

My criteria for purchase was/is:

  

            1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability

  

            2. Published acuracy specifications.

  

            3. Experienced with aircraft applications

  

            4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit

  

            5. Price

  

 

  

Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.

  

 

  

Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has moved on.

  

 

  

Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.

  

 

  

Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.

  

 

  

What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future improvements?

  

 

  

I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not.

  

 

  

Bill DeRouchey

  

N939SB, flying

  

bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com

  

 

   

William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		   

Bill,If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track record.Williamhttp://wcurtis.nerv10.com/  	  Quote: 	
		   	


[b] 	
    [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

The only other type of flight into icing I know of is Known/ Reported Icing.  Without prop and leading edge boots would any RV pilot be found there?  I hope not in my insurance pool.  When the workload is heavy, a large easy to read screen is better than a small, cheap one on the workload at hand. KISS.  It brings down planes out here all the time.  

   

My situational awareness is improved when the data is clear, concise and easy to process.  

     

John Cox 

 

   

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Curtis

 Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 5:20 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10  

  

   

John,

 

 Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."  I'll make sure to update my signature with that title!  

 

 Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. " have to do with an EFIS?  I always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.

 

 Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily erect after power up.  None (cheap, expensive, certified or not) will do anything about “unreported icing, strong headwinds” or lessen you reliance on the “use of corrective lenses”—those features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000 price differential.  Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR."  From the FAA’s perspective there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS.  All these units, Grand Rapid  s, Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros.  Some of these gyros are better than others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" and another "IFR."  All indications are that WTC will be using the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.  

   

   

Bill,  

   

Thanks again for the information.  I’ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or OSH.  Let us know when you have an installation manual and wiring diagrams on your website.  I assume you will be using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the autopilot?  

   

   

William - "our Devil’s Advocate"

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/      

  

   

Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying behind his OP Tech screens.  

   

Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate.  

     

John Cox 

 #40600   

  

      [quote][b]

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

John,

  You are very wrong about "any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls & pitch". I tested a gyro that was not cheap and failed miserably performing these tasks. The problem seems to be they cannot separate the gravity vector from the centripetal vector with any accuracy and the error compounds itself over time.

   

  The root of this problem is you can pick out a gyro and we can joyfully debate its accuracy through a six-pack of beer, but in the end neither of us has data. We don't have data because they can not afford to test the unit on their own or have not tested the unit using a certified lab, or do not like the results after testing with a certified lab. I called an unnamed gyro-person and asked how he tested his gyro? His answer was we strapped it down, went flying, and it looked about right!

   

  The pilots need to learn that without a published specification that  covers accuracy in both static and aircraft dynamic conditions they have no gyro. 

   

  I did not intend to keep the Crossbow part number a secret. Its NAV420CA-100, their standard for experimental usage. If anyone would like I will add an option for the certified AHRS500 or 510. Just simply did not believe folks would pay the extra $8K (approx) for the certified unit when the experimental unit is a close sibling.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com (bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com)

  

William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:

  [quote]          John,



Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."  I'll make sure to update my signature with that title!  



Secondly, what does  "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. " have to do with an EFIS?  I always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.



Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily erect after power up.  None (cheap, expensive, certified or not) will do anything about “unreported icing, strong headwinds” or lessen you reliance on the “use of corrective lenses”—those features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000 price differential.  Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR."  From the FAA’s perspective there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS.  All these units, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Grand Rapids, Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros.  Some of these gyros are better than others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" and another "IFR."  All indications are that WTC will be using the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

   

  Bill,

   

  Thanks again for the information.  I’ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or OSH.  Let us know when you have an installation manual and wiring diagrams on your website.  I assume you will be using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the autopilot?

   

  

   

William - "our Devil’s Advocate"

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



    

    Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR  offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying behind his OP Tech screens.

   

  Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate.

   

    John Cox 

#40600 



        

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10



    

    Hi William-



    Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.



     



    Why is it so expensive?



     



    I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.



     



    We  started with the best components available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!



     



    All the suggested panels are FAA legal.



     



    Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the back.



     



    We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of PFD problems.  



     



    Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.



     



    The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of  solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.



     



    Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the  magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.



     



    My criteria for purchase was/is:



                1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability



                2. Published acuracy specifications.



                3. Experienced with aircraft applications



                4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit



                5. Price



     



    Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.



     



    Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has moved on.



     



    Regarding your  specific question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.



     



    Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at  for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.



     



    What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future improvements?



     



    I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not.



     



    Bill DeRouchey



    N939SB, flying



    bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com



     



      



William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    Bill,



If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track record.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 [quote][b]

RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

In a message dated 2/26/2007 1:09:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,  billderou(at)yahoo.com writes:

  

 "Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply  integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door  sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional  components."

  

 "Regarding your specific  question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all  VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do  not meet the first four purchase requirements"

  

  

  

  

  

 In the interest of accuracy...

  

 The AF-3500EE EFIS/Engine Monitor has the inputs for the fuel levels,  door switches, aileron trim, elevator trim,flap position, and AOA stall warning  all for the RV-10. Our original AF-2500 engine monitor in both factory  RV-10's has always had the flap, trim, and door switch warnings.      

  

 The AF-3500 & AF-3400 EFIS use an AHRS that is based on the Certified  Crossbow 500 AHRS.

  

 An AF-3500EE EFIS/Engine Monitor/AOA is deeply integrated into Van's  personal RV-10 panel, for around $8,000 including all the engine sensors.

  

  

 Sincerely,

  

 Rob Hickman

 www.Advanced-Flight-Systems.com



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.  [quote][b]

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

My last response was to William. Sorry John.

  Bill

  



Bill DeRouchey <billderou(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

  [quote]  John,

  You are very wrong about "any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls & pitch". I tested a gyro that was not cheap and failed miserably performing these tasks. The problem seems to be they cannot separate the gravity vector from the centripetal vector with any accuracy and the error compounds itself over time.

   

  The root of this problem is you can pick out a gyro and we can joyfully debate its accuracy through a six-pack of beer, but in the end neither of us has data. We don't have data because they can not afford to test the unit on their own or have not tested the unit using a certified lab, or do not like the results after testing with a  certified lab. I called an unnamed gyro-person and asked how he tested his gyro? His answer was we strapped it down, went flying, and it looked about right!

   

  The pilots need to learn that without a published specification that covers accuracy in both static and aircraft dynamic conditions they have no gyro. 

   

  I did not intend to keep the Crossbow part number a secret. Its NAV420CA-100, their standard for experimental usage. If anyone would like I will add an option for the certified AHRS500 or 510. Just simply did not believe folks would pay the extra $8K (approx) for the certified unit when the experimental unit is a close sibling.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com (bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com)

  

William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:

  [quote]          John,



Firstly, thank you for categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."  I'll make sure to update my signature with that title!  



Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. " have to do with an EFIS?  I always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.



Anyway, any cheap gyro can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow constant bank turn or speedily erect after power up.  None (cheap, expensive, certified or not) will do anything about “unreported icing, strong headwinds” or lessen you reliance on the “use of corrective lenses”—those features WOULD indeed be  worth considerable more that the $10,000 price differential.  Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does expensive make it "IFR."  From the FAA’s perspective there is no such thing as a VFR or IFR EFIS.  All these units, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Grand Rapids, Chelton (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros.  Some of these gyros are better than others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make one "VFR" and another "IFR."  All indications are that WTC will be using the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

   

   

  Bill,

   

  Thanks again for the information.  I’ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at Sun-N-Fun or OSH.  Let us know when you have an installation manual and wiring diagrams on your website.  I assume you will be  using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the autopilot?

   

  

   

William - "our Devil’s Advocate"

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



    

    Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my  attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying behind his OP Tech screens.

   

  Bill, Thanks for the investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate.

   

    John Cox 

#40600 



        

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

Sent: Monday, February  26, 2007 1:07 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10



   

    Hi William-



    Thanks for the good question. It required me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5 years. Its not a short answer.



     



    Why is it so expensive?



     



    I, more than any other, would like our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all the high end features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this objective.



     



    We started with the best components available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin 430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430 increasing your map size by 50%!



      



    All the suggested panels are FAA legal.



     



    Mission is cross country IFR. This is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the  back.



     



    We allowed for a robust backup plan with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the half level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically, one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the  engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not just a predefined set of PFD problems. 



     



    Nowhere can you purchase a glass panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and additional components.



     



    The price of our product would be much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only manufacturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.



     



    Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors, accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping each of the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable 360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended business, so I abandoned this effort  and began shopping.



     



    My criteria for purchase was/is:



                1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing cabability



                2. Published acuracy specifications.



                3. Experienced with aircraft applications



                4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit



                5. Price



     



    Needless to say, only Crossbow met these requirements.



     



    Looking to the PFD's future, we offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display long after the market has moved  on.



     



    Regarding your specific question about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the air is a bad idea.



     



    Regarding your question about the Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4" displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4" with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it lets in a lot of sun.



     



    What computer are you purchasing? Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future improvements?



     



    I looked once again for the accuracy specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or not.



     



    Bill DeRouchey



    N939SB, flying



    bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com



     



      



William  Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:

  [quote]  Bill,



If you don't mind however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.  What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this [quote][b]

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

The word cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems.  The current supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for a 2 screen system.  Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it came with a with 200hp car with leather interior and lots of options, attached to it.  Amazingly it also works inside the entire tunnel in Baltimore harbor where my Garmin 196 would stop working as soon as I entered the tunnel.  Dynon can make a unit for about 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some of the other ones..  OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon systems just for a  screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or software or anything else.  Thats actuall more than  Garmin charges for their GMX200 and its certified.  In fact a single Chelton screen without anything else costs about the same as a complete GRT system with 2 screens and an EIS.  Now Garmin has a 900 which is going into panels that are going to approach 6 figures.   For that amount of money you will be able to get one of the new Cessna LSA, instruments, engine and airframe prebuilt for you and certified although I think I will go for a SuperCub or a Maule or maybe even 2 RV12.  I saw a Maule taking off at our airport last year and it was amazing.  The angle of attack was so high that I was sure he was going to stall.  But the airplane kept on hanging in there and the pilot kept on doing touch and goes at the same high angle of attack.  

  

 There are too many EFIS companies right now and the industry will consolidate.  The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing one can get it for about $25K and its certified.  That will set a benchmark at the high end.  Dynon has set the benchmark at the low end and they are constantly adding more features with moving map being another item they will add and they will be pushing the low end bar higher and higher.  Someone should be able to comen in at $15K for a non-certified dual screen comparable to the G600/Chelton/OP.  If someone comes in at that price with a product comperable to the Cheltons then they will dominate the market..  Maybe we need the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality affordable products.  This company needs to plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost and price their products  accordingly.   Now we have more than half a dozen companies competing in the experimental market.  Especially at the high end there appear to be too many players.  

  

 As far as being able to see under low light and turbulence, a concern I also share,  the solution has existed for many years.  Its round gauges.  Back to basic no frills flying.  On a standard altimeter you can take all the number markings away and you can still tell your altitude to within about 50ft.  If you want to maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or 5000ft once there  you only have to make sure the big needle is pointing straight up no number reading. Thats as simple as it gets.

  

 Niko

 40188

 ---

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Things put in perspective!  I enjoyed the reading.

Do not archive



On Feb 27, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Niko wrote:

[quote]The word cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems.  The current supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for a 2 screen system.  Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it came with a with 200hp car with leather interior and lots of options, attached to it.  Amazingly it also works inside the entire tunnel in Baltimore harbor where my Garmin 196 would stop working as soon as I entered the tunnel.  Dynon can make a unit for about 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some of the other ones..  OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon systems just for a  screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or software or anything else.  Thats actuall more than Garmin charges for their GMX200 and its certified.  In fact a single Chelton screen without anything else costs about the same as a complete GRT system with 2 screens and an EIS.  Now Garmin has a 900 which is going into panels that are going to approach 6 figures.   For that amount of money you will be able to get one of the new Cessna LSA, instruments, engine and airframe prebuilt for you and certified although I think I will go for a SuperCub or a Maule or maybe even 2 RV12.  I saw a Maule taking off at our airport last year and it was amazing.  The angle of attack was so high that I was sure he was going to stall.  But the airplane kept on hanging in there and the pilot kept on doing touch and goes at the same high angle of attack. 

 

There are too many EFIS companies right now and the industry will consolidate.  The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing one can get it for about $25K and its certified.  That will set a benchmark at the high end.  Dynon has set the benchmark at the low end and they are constantly adding more features with moving map being another item they will add and they will be pushing the low end bar higher and higher.  Someone should be able to comen in at $15K for a non-certified dual screen comparable to the G600/Chelton/OP.  If someone comes in at that price with a product comperable to the Cheltons then they will dominate the market..  Maybe we need the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality affordable products.  This company needs to plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost and price their products accordingly.   Now we have more than half a dozen companies competing in the experimental market.  Especially at the high end there appear to be too many players. 

 

As far as being able to see under low light and turbulence, a concern I also share,  the solution has existed for many years.  Its round gauges.  Back to basic no frills flying.  On a standard altimeter you can take all the number markings away and you can still tell your altitude to within about 50ft.  If you want to maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or 5000ft once there  you only have to make sure the big needle is pointing straight up no number reading. Thats as simple as it gets.

 

Niko

40188

---

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

I actually like this post (thanks Niko).  Normally I'm  stupid, but when it comes to this topic, I'm really stupid.   



 For example, someone described to me the beautiful AF-3000  series (and I'm just using Rob's stuff as an one example) as simply a  replacement for the normal six pack.  Well, okay.  Now, add to that  some "normal" certified gps/nav/com, and don't we have an IFR capable  system?  You will want some round gauges in there for backup, or even  an MX20/200 for terrain, traffic, weather display.  I'm not sure what that  prices out to be, but other than HITS, what am I missing here?  Garmin says  they are fully integrated.  Ok.  But I'm not quite sure what that  means, and if that is better, why is it better?  And, does the extra  functionality or convenience you get justify the cost?   

  

 Not too long ago, a beautifully laid out fully IFR panel  would not be much more.  And why do we need two screens?  You get all  the engine gauges you need with the AF-3000 series.  If you want your  passenger to fly, fine, but is there a requirement?  You might need a  couple backup standard engine gauges if you lack the second screen, but other  than enabling the passenger to fly....?  Again, I'm really stupid about  this stuff.  

  

 Anyway, do not archive

  

 John Jessen

   328  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Niko

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:34 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Glass Primary Flight  Displays for RV-10

 

  The word  cheap is funny in conjuction with current EFIS systems.  The current  supposedly "good" EFIS systems run in the high 20's for a 2 screen system.   Thats about what I paid for my VW GPS, but it came with a with 200hp  car with leather interior and lots of options, attached to it.   Amazingly it also works inside the entire tunnel in Baltimore harbor where my  Garmin 196 would stop working as soon as I entered the tunnel.  Dynon can  make a unit for about 2K, yes its the low end but 1/4 of the cost of some  of the other ones..  OP, and Chelton want more than two complete Dynon  systems just for a  screen to be used as an MFD with no AHRS, or  software or anything else.  Thats actuall more than Garmin charges for  their GMX200 and its certified.  In fact a single Chelton screen  without anything else costs about the same as a complete GRT system with 2  screens and an EIS.  Now Garmin has a 900 which is going into panels that  are going to approach 6 figures.   For that amount of money you will  be able to get one of the new Cessna LSA, instruments, engine and airframe  prebuilt for you and certified although I think I will go for a SuperCub or a  Maule or maybe even 2 RV12.  I saw a Maule taking off at our airport last  year and it was amazing.  The angle of attack was so high that I was sure  he was going to stall.  But the airplane kept on hanging in there and the  pilot kept on doing touch and goes at the same high angle of attack.   

  

 There  are too many EFIS companies right now and the industry will consolidate.   The Garmin 600 is coming in at $28K and I am guessing one can get it for  about $25K and its certified.  That will set a benchmark at the high  end.  Dynon has set the benchmark at the low end and they are constantly  adding more features with moving map being another item they will add and they  will be pushing the low end bar higher and higher.  Someone should be able  to comen in at $15K for a non-certified dual screen comparable to the  G600/Chelton/OP.  If someone comes in at that price with a product  comperable to the Cheltons then they will dominate the market..  Maybe we  need the Japanese to come in and show us how to produce quality affordable  products.  This company needs to plan on high quality,  high volume,  and  low cost and price their products accordingly.   Now we have  more than half a dozen companies competing in the experimental  market.  Especially at the high end there appear to be too many  players.  

  

 As far  as being able to see under low light and turbulence, a concern I also  share,  the solution has existed for many years.  Its round  gauges.  Back to basic no frills flying.  On a standard altimeter you  can take all the number markings away and you can still tell your altitude to  within about 50ft.  If you want to maintain 3000ft or 4000ft or  5000ft once there  you only have to make sure the big needle is  pointing straight up no number reading. Thats as simple as it gets.

  

 Niko

 40188

 -----  Original Message ----

From: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com; rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, February 26,  2007 8:20:24 PM

Subject: RE: Glass Primary Flight Displays for  RV-10



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John,



Firstly, thank you for  categorizing me as "our Devil's advocate."  I'll make sure to update my  signature with that title!  



Secondly, what does "Turbulence and Unreported Icing coupled with strong  headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens (due to advancing pilot age) in a low  light situation…. " have to do with an  EFIS?  I always feel I need a Rosetta stone and a decoder ring to decipher  you messages--I guess I'm a little slow with them.



Anyway, any cheap gyro  can handle turbulence, rolls and pitch, what they can't handle is a very slow  constant bank turn or speedily erect after power up.  None (cheap,  expensive, certified or not) will do anything about “unreported icing, strong  headwinds” or lessen you reliance on the “use of corrective lenses”—those  features WOULD indeed be worth considerable more that the $10,000 price  differential.  Cheaper does not automatically make an EFIS "VFR" nor does  expensive make it "IFR."  From the FAA’s perspective there is no such thing  as a VFR or IFR EFIS.  All these units, Grand Rapids , Chelton  (Sport), BMA, and now WTD ALL use uncertified gyros.  Some of these gyros  are better than others but NONE are certified and only individual opinions make  one "VFR" and another "IFR."  All indications are that WTC will be using  the Crossbow 425EX not the certified 500GA gyro. 

  

  

Bill, 

  

Thanks again for the  information.  I’ll look forward to seeing your EFIS at  Sun-N-Fun or OSH .  Let us know when you have an installation  manual and wiring diagrams on your website.  I assume you will  be using the ARINC 429 bus connection to/from the 4/530 and the  autopilot? 

  

 

 William - "our Devil’s  Advocate"

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



  

  

Turbulence and  Unreported Icing coupled with strong headwinds and my use of Corrective Lens  (due to advancing pilot age) in a low light situation…. Now that gets my  attention.  I think your thought process, research, design background and  final decisions will prove to offer the RV-10 builders a great option to Butt up  against Chelton, OP Technologies and Garmin.  I ruled out the cheaper VFR  offerings long ago.  It is down to painfully thoughtful and analytic  evaluation at this point.  I also look forward to Deems’ report flying  behind his OP Tech screens. 

  

Bill, Thanks for the  investment and the answer to our Devil’s Advocate. 

   

John  Cox  

#40600  

    

 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:07  PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: re: Glass Primary  Flight Displays for RV-10

 

   

Hi William-

  

Thanks for the good question. It required  me to remember all the reasons for each decision of each step over the last 3.5  years. Its not a short answer.

  

 

  

Why is it so  expensive?

  

 

  

I, more than any other, would like  our primary flight display "PFD" to be less expensive. However, if you look at  the complete panel prices you will see that you receive all the high end  features without the high end pricing. In the end, our price was determined by  our objective: provide a high quality, solid IFR platform. Kindly understand  that "solid" means with and without turbulence. Lets disect this  objective.

  

 

  

We started with the best components  available, integrated a display computer, and filled in the holes. Garmin  430/530 was chosen as one cornerstone. This unit has certifications that allow  you to file /G, an easy map update process, Glideslope, Localizer, GPS, and COM  receivers. Its a mature product that you can afford. Note that most Chelton  owners have a G430 installed. TIP: for $500 you can get the G430 downloaded with  terrain capability - not TAWS, just terrain warning. ANOTHER TIP: on our PFD we  show the numbers that you typically see on the right side of the G430 display  with map selected. Use the menu button and remove this area from the G430  increasing your map size by 50%!

  

 

  

All the suggested panels are FAA  legal.

  

 

  

Mission is cross country IFR. This  is the rule, not the exception. Many innovations were added to support this  mission, such as, fuel management, wind, prop setting, etc. We don't approach  IFR as a challenge. With proper instrumentation, we expect it to be comfortable  with the grandkids (or if your ahead of the game - kids) in the  back.

  

 

  

We allowed for a robust backup plan  with more than one layer. If you look closely at the suggested panels you will  see 2 & 1/2 levels of backup. The independently sensored autopilot is the  half level. Note that each subsequent level becomes simplier. My objective to  the all-in-one glass PFD is the backup becomes more complex.  Typically,  one choses another similar unit as backup with the advertised swap displays in  case of failure. It requires very complex logic to do this automatically, and  there are hardware and software components added to support this functionality  which makes it less reliable. The origin of this thinking is what the  engineering department would call "scope". They would list all the things that  could go wrong with their component and provide a recovery procedure. The fault  with this scope is the pilot is subject to any problem that occurs - not  just a predefined set of PFD problems. 

  

 

  

Nowhere can you purchase a glass  panel that is as deeply integrated into the RV10 as our PFD. We pickup the fuel  levels, flaps, door sensors, and stall warning to minimize weight, wiring, and  additional components.

  

 

  

The price of our product would be  much more appealing if we removed the gyro. Unfortunately, Crossbow is the only  manufacturer of solid state gyros that meets our objective of a "solid IFR  platform". Since there is only one qualifying choice I did not want our  customers to shop the gyro and attempt to save money thinking they were still  purchasing a "solid IFR platform". Perhaps, in the future there will be other  suitable choices and we could provide options. Now I must talk about gyros so  you won't believe that this is an arbitrary judgement.

  

 

  

Before I ordered the RV10 kit (and I  am kit #29), I swore that I would never put a blankity, blank vacuum system in  another plane ... ever. So, my approach was to create a solid state gyro that  would be the crux of an IFR panel. I purchased the magnetic sensors,  accelerometers, and rate gyros necessary to build my own gyro. After prototyping  each of the components and thinking what would be required to produce a reliable  360 degree, accurate and inexpensive gyro the answer was it is simply not  possible because of the cost of the engineering test equipment required. You  need a very accurate rate table, a temperature chamber to characterize sensor  behavior, calibrated orientation, tight production controls, and the ability to  measure and calibrate each unit shipped. It was clearly a product for a very  serious engineering company dedicated to this purpose. This was not my intended  business, so I abandoned this effort and began shopping.

  

 

  

My criteria for purchase  was/is:

  

             1. Proven know-how engineering and manufacturing  cabability

  

             2. Published acuracy specifications.

  

             3. Experienced with aircraft applications

  

             4. Birth certificate (calibration) for each unit

  

             5. Price

  

 

  

Needless to say, only Crossbow met  these requirements.

  

 

  

Looking to the PFD's future, we  offer multiple, defined components rather than a single box. Software upgrades  are simple, changing out the entire cpu is simple, updating the display is  simple, etc. Since the purchased components have clearly defined interfaces and  our manufactured components have standard, extensible protocol links with the  display computer its relatively easy to keep improving the product. We don't  ever want to be in the position of squeezing life out of a 6.4" display  long after the market has moved on.

  

 

  

Regarding your specific question  about the competition $10,000 under our price: Look close, they are all VFR  components. The major reason is their gyros are of dubious quality, and do not  meet the first four purchase requirements (above). Most of these manufacturers  clearly state that they are for VFR usage - its the purchasers that streach the  usage into IFR situations. Trading money on the ground for a challenge in the  air is a bad idea.

  

 

  

Regarding your question about the  Garmin 600 $10,000 over our price: This package was designed to directly compete  with Chelton. Its not the best of everything, just better than Chelton. Choose a  display you will be comfortable looking at for many hours. They tilted two 6.4"  displays on end with low resolution and unknown brightness. Our display is 10.4"  with 1024 x 768 resolution and 1200 nits of brightness. These are engineering  numbers and cannot be compared with a "sunlight bright" phase the marketing  weenie penned. The visibility from an RV10 is wonderful - but the downside is it  lets in a lot of sun.

  

 

  

What computer are you purchasing?  Does it have extra capacity for future upgrades, or is it an economical  implementation that needs a hardware upgrade for future  improvements?

  

 

  

I looked once again for the accuracy  specifications of the Garmin gyro with no luck. Nothing is published. I have  become very hard headed on this subject because I view the gyro as the crux of  an IFR flight. Remember that our IFR mission includes turbulence. This is when I  expect to feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if this is a lucky day or  not.

  

 

  

Bill  DeRouchey

  

N939SB,  flying

  

bill(at)wtdaviationtechnology.com

  

 

   

William Curtis  <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		     

Bill,



If you don't mind    however, permit me to be the devil's advocate for a moment.  Looking    through your site I see that your single panel, single gyro EFIS    system is $19,000 with an additional $3000 for an second display.     What additional does you system offer at $10,000 more than an equivalent    more established Grand Rapids system or only $10,000 less than a fully type    certificated Garmin G600 system?  Please don't take this question the    wrong way, only it seems on the surface, a builder would be paying more for an    equivalent experimental system that does not yet have any track    record.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/    	  Quote: 	
		   	


[b]">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List===



	
[/b]

 

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[b]

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:

This company needs to plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost 



I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.



do not archive



David Maib

40559

QB wings

 [quote][b]

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

owl40188(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Understood David, however, at truly high volumes the equivalent of a G600 would probably be something like  $2K or $3K or even less.  I am talking about $15K here which is still a lot of money for two screens a software and some gizmos.  If you double triple or quadruple your volume there is a very significant drop to the development cost per unit and that will be done through consolidation of all the small players.   Additionally,  the lower price will itself increase demand. 

  

 Niko

  

 do not archive

 ---

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

Which will increase liability and cause the vendors  insurance rates to increase, not only is there a cost of development and the  product, but the offset for liability must also be considered and in the day and  age of $10.5 mill lawsuits for killing yourself, a vendor must carry huge  amounts of insurance.

 Dan



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Niko

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 2:25 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Glass Primary Flight  Displays for RV-10

 

  Understood  David, however, at truly high volumes the equivalent of a G600 would probably be  something like  $2K or $3K or even less.  I am talking about $15K here  which is still a lot of money for two screens a software and some  gizmos.  If you double triple or quadruple your volume there is a very  significant drop to the development cost per unit and that will be  done through consolidation of all the small players.    Additionally,  the lower price will itself  increase demand. 

  

 Niko

  

 do not  archive

 -----  Original Message ----

From: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:31:59  PM

Subject: Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for  RV-10

  On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM,  Niko wrote:

This company needs to plan on high quality,   high volume, and  low cost 

 

 I imagine the  "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy,  but I doubt if the numbers will constitute anything approaching what a  manufacturer would consider high volume.

 

 do not archive

 

 David Maib

 40559

 QB wings

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  	


 

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		  [b]



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href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[/b]  [quote][b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

In a message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dmaib(at)mac.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

      On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM,    Niko wrote:

This company needs to plan on high    quality,  high volume, and  low cost 

   

   I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur    built market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute    anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high    volume.

	
  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     I believe if you check the    numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney, Piper, Commander, Cessna and all the    others put together each year except Cirrus...

	


AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.  [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

He wishes!  Textron’s Cessna unit last year delivered 1239 fully outfitted aircraft, 850 of which were piston.  

   

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:37 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10  

  

  

     

In a message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmaib(at)mac.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

       

On Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:  

  



 This company needs to plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost   

    

   

    

I imagine the "high volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy, but I doubt if the numbers will constitute anything approaching what a manufacturer would consider high volume.  

  	
    

   

    

   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

I believe if you check the numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney, Piper, Commander, Cessna and all the others put together each year except Cirrus...  

  	
  



 

       

  

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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      [quote][b]

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

and I do believe Vans delivered more than 1000 new kits  starts, but this does not mean completed airplanes just new starts. But they did  say that the kits are taking to the air at more than 1 a day, so that is still a  healthy number.

 Dan

 N289DT



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:03  PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass  Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

 

  

He  wishes!  Textron’s Cessna unit last year delivered 1239 fully outfitted  aircraft, 850 of which were piston. 

  

Do  not archive 

    

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:37  PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Glass  Primary Flight Displays for RV-10



 

   

In a  message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmaib(at)mac.com  writes:

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On Feb    27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:

   



This company needs to    plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost    

      

 

      

I imagine the "high    volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy, but I    doubt if the numbers will constitute anything approaching what a manufacturer    would consider high volume.

	
  

 

  

 

  

 

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I believe if you check    the numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney, Piper, Commander, Cessna and all the    others put together each year except    Cirrus...

	
 

   

 

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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

 	  Quote: 	
		     Mooney delivered about    20 planes...Commander 0, Tiger 0, Piper ?, Cessna 850 and about 15%+ of    these were delivered to CAP so it you take these and fleet sales out, Cessna    probably delivered less than 500 to GA pilots, worldwide.  Van's is    quickly becoming a major producer of GA aircraft. I'd guess in the next 2    years, CAP will have filled it's pipe line on the Glass cockpits and will    then really cut back on Cessna's G 1000 182 production unless Cessna finds new    customers.

	
  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     and I do    believe Vans delivered more than 1000 new kits starts, but this does not mean    completed airplanes just new starts. But they did say that the kits are taking    to the air at more than 1 a day, so that is still a healthy    number.

   Dan

   N289DT



         From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder    (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:03    PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: RV10-List:    Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10

   

      

He    wishes!  Textronâ€™s Cessna unit last year delivered 1239 fully outfitted    aircraft, 850 of which were piston.   

    

Do    not archive   

          

From:    owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:37    PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List:    Glass Primary Flight Displays for RV-10



   

       

In a    message dated 2/27/07 12:33:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmaib(at)mac.com    writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		       

                

On      Feb 27, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Niko wrote:

     



This company needs to      plan on high quality,  high volume, and  low cost      

          

 

          

I imagine the "high      volume" could be the problem. The amateur built market is very healthy, but      I doubt if the numbers will constitute anything approaching what a      manufacturer would consider high    volume.

	
      

 

      

 

      

 

    	  Quote: 	
		            

I believe if you      check the numbers, Vans is out selling Mooney, Piper, Commander, Cessna and      all the others put together each year except      Cirrus...

	
   

         

   

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