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New "European XL" from Zenith?

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LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: New "European XL" from Zenith?

Anyone know what the "Lighter" parts are?  Are the flaps fiberglass?  

  

 Larry





AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: New XL

Flaps fiberglass?  Maybe.     Look at the main gear.   I suspect they shaved a few pounds there.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: New "European XL" from Zenith?

The curved landing gear  could be composite: www.zenithair.com/zodiac/607/xl-eu7.jpg.

  

 -- Craig

  

 do not  archive

  

   [quote][b]

Kurt.Schumacher(at)schumi
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: New "European XL" from Zenith?

In general, the limitation for European Ultralight is 450 kg plus a 22.5 kg

allowance for the rescue system if installed. On pilot with fuel - or two

crewmembers and virtually no fuel....



Stay happy with the LSA regulations over there in the US. One day we might

see a EASA Recreational Aircraft class - in some hundred years when the

Brits, the French, the Portuguese, the Spanish and the German can agree.

Amazed they manage Airbus - aside some lay-offs these days.



Suspect lightweight fiberglass or carbon cowling (was an option from CZAW)



Landing gear bows like the CZAW introduced glass gear legs (engineered to

550 kg MTOM AFAIK)



By the way, there are some pics more to see in the Zenith web - check

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/607/xl-eu2.jpg to xl-eu7.jpg 



Have Fun!



-Kurt.



SportAviation of Switzerland 

http://www.sportaviation.ch/ 



--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: New

[quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]The curved landing gear  could be composite: www.zenithair.com/zodiac/607/xl-eu7.jpg.

  

 -- Craig

  

 do not  archive

  

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




I was going to say, that's a definite.



I'd have to think a fiberglass flap would be heavier.  Aluminum is about as light as you can go. I know an aluminum boat and a fiberglass boat of the same size, the fiberglass one will be much heavier.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: New "European XL" from Zenith?

I got an e-mail from Nick this afternoon and he said that they expect to have the arched gear available by the summer (2007?)!



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



[quote="craig(at)craigandjean.com"]The curved landing gear could be composite: www.zenithair.com/zodiac/607/xl-eu7.jpg (http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/607/xl-eu7.jpg).



-- Craig



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   [b]


	




I was going to say, that's a definite.



I'd have to think a fiberglass flap would be heavier. Aluminum is about as light as you can go. I know an aluminum boat and a fiberglass boat of the same size, the fiberglass one will be much heavier.



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online 	     Looking for earth-friendly autos? 

 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.   [quote][b]

dfmoeller

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Austin, TX

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: Re: New

Around the first of this year, I was asking some questions of the factory about relocating the 912S engine a bit further forward to relieve some of the ass-heaviness of the 601XL (among other things).  Caleb told me the following via email:



"The Czech Aircraft Works did use a longer engine mount for their 601XLs, but it was much longer, I believe about 9" longer. They made several changes and I think the engine mount being that long was to counter the effects of another change. That being said we are working with our European dealer to produce a new firewall forward package for the 912S that shifts the CG forward. That should be available this summer, but I don't know what that will cost at this time. Another option for you is to get a metal prop for it. They weigh about 15lbs more and being at the very nose of the aircraft will help out a great deal."



Sounds like there may be several changes in the works.  I'm hoping this becomes available soon.  I'm a big guy and my bird is limited in useful load by rearward CG, not by MTOW.



Doug

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Re: New

Doug,

When you refer to "ass-heaviness" do you find yourself using excessive nose down trim in flight with just yourself aboard? Or is the problem that it is light on it's nose when parked  (ie.  tail grounds when you climb on the wing.)  I've been advised that the orientation of the main landing gear when installed can make a big difference in the latter.  They say if you install the gear facing the way it is shown in the current plans that grounding the tail is more likely.  They also say that installing it facing as it was originally requires a bit more of a pull to rotate and get it flying.



 I'm a big guy too but I assumed since people and fuel were fairly close to the CG that it would be hard to get out of the envelope unless you put too much weight towards the back of the rear luggage area.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

dfmoeller

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Austin, TX

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: New

Tim,



Actually, the trim isn't terribly effective either way.  I have the older, smaller style trim tab, and on approach while lightly loaded, it really won't hold the nose up.  Not a problem though, some think thats a safer condition, and I tend to agree.



The 601XL does have some W&B issues though, at least with the 912S installed in the older Zenith engine frames.  The Cg is almost at the forward limit, unloaded.  About 6 or 8 months ago, there was a thread on this forum wherein a guy described moving his engine forward to try to rectify the issue.  The CZAW engine frames were designed to carry the engine more forward than the Zenith ones.  I'm 6'4", 280#.  With another man on board, figure an average guy at 200# (the mythical 180 pounder was only an average, and that isn't even accurate anymore - this leaves half the population out!!!!), this only leaves 80 pounds for fuel (which still puts the W part safely within the early XL's 1300# MTOW - barely): not a whole lot.  Now the kicker!  When this fuel load approaches zero, the Cg moves almost 15 mm past the rearward limit - a very dangerous condition.  This makes flight planning a real challenge.



Look at some of the Excel W&B spreadsheets made by some on this forum.  You'll see that I'm not alone in this.



This situation makes the rear luggage area almost unusable.  Install the wing lockers!!!!



This is why I was asking Zenith about moving the engine; that would be a perfect solution.



Note, I am only talking about the Rotax engined models.  I believe the Jabirus hold the engine forward already, although they are a few pounds heavier.



My gear is installed in the older manner, so on the takeoff roll, one REALLY has to yank the craft off the ground; it simply will not fly itself off the ground.  And on landing, its simply impossible to keep the nose in the air.  It is extremely difficult to raise the nose by pressing the tail down, too.  I am currenlty in the middle of some fairly extensive work on the bird at present, so I was planning on reversing the gear in the process.  This might help the balance issue a bit, too (marginally, but anything helps).  I am a little apprehensive though, I fly out of a grass strip thats not maintained all that well, and I wonder how the new gear placement will make the plane behave during all the bouncing around.  It seems like the wheelbase will be awfully short then.  We'll see!  It should be easy enough to change back, if I don't like it.



Doug

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: New

 	  dfmoeller wrote: 	
		  "The Czech Aircraft Works did use a longer engine mount for their 601XLs, but it was much longer, I believe about 9" longer. They made several changes and I think the engine mount being that long was to counter the effects of another change. Another option for you is to get a metal prop for it. They weigh about 15lbs more and being at the very nose of the aircraft will help out a great deal." 	




It's a crock. I know first hand. 15 lbs in the nose will help some, but not as much as moving the whole engine forward 9 inches (duh ... don't even need to do the math on that one).



I had Chris and Matt look over the first LSA out of CZAW (my plane). They scrutinized it with every intention of finding fault. In the end, not even Chris could tell me what was significantly different.



I had to have a new mount and cowl shipped from CZAW and put on by Lockwood in Florida. They did a great job, by the way. The CG is still not where I'd like it, but most definately usable and safe.



ZAC just plain screwed up, in my opinion. Odd that they blame CZAW but then offering the same extra long mount as CZAW.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
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David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: New

P.S. The longer mount for my plane was designed by Chris/ZAC, not CZAW. I requested a letter for insurance purposes that indicated it was of ZAC design and specification.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

dfmoeller

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Austin, TX

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Re: New

David,



I agree; adding 15 pounds is a poor alternative to moving existing weight.  Plus, not nearly as effective.



Do you have any pix of your new installation, particularly the cowling?  I'd love to compare the two closely.



The new pix on the ZAC website really don't make the nose look 9" longer to me.  Does that cowl look like your in the profile ground shot?  It looks a lot like my old one.



Doug

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Re: New

 	  dfmoeller wrote: 	
		  David,



Do you have any pix of your new installation, particularly the cowling?  I'd love to compare the two closely.



Doug 	




I don't have any side-on, so a little hard to see the difference, but the nose is moved out about 9 inches. See attached.

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