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phd1993

Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Overland Park, KS

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Getting set to send in paperwork to start the  registration process for my kit build CH701.  Need feedback, pros/cons  about going the Exp-Amateur Built (8150-8 or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A).   Items that have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when I  sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their annual  inspections.  Am I correct in the assumption that if I went Exp-AB I could  do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to do the inspections, and if I  went Exp-LSA I would need to take the "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any  new non-AP owner could also do annuals after passing the "16 hour"  course?

  

 I need to go into this with eyes open and not get  blindsided with unknown aspects.

  

 Thanks in advance,

  

 Sammy J Hutcheson

 CH701 in paint shop

 N6412Z (reserved)

   [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

From all the information I have seen, your assumptions are correct.  

Who is authorized to do the inspections is the only difference  

between the two after the plane is certificated.  Remember though  

that you have to have the repairman certificate to do the annuals for  

E-AB and you have to apply for the certificate to get it, it is not  

automatically issued with the airworthiness certificate.  One other  

thing, If you hold the repairman certificate for a particular E-AB,  

it is my understanding that you can do the annuals on that airplane  

no matter who owns it in the future.



On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Harrison-Hutcheson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Getting set to send in paperwork to start the registration process  

 for my kit build CH701.  Need feedback, pros/cons about going the  

 Exp-Amateur Built (8150-8 or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A).  Items that  

 have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when  

 I sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their  

 annual inspections.  Am I correct in the assumption that if I went  

 Exp-AB I could do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to  

 do the inspections, and if I went Exp-LSA I would need to take the  

 "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any new non-AP owner could  

 also do annuals after passing the "16 hour" course?




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:26 am Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

 	  bryanmmartin wrote: 	
		  From all the information I have seen, your assumptions are correct.  

Who is authorized to do the inspections is the only difference  

between the two after the plane is certificated.  Remember though  

that you have to have the repairman certificate to do the annuals for  

E-AB and you have to apply for the certificate to get it, it is not  

automatically issued with the airworthiness certificate.  One other  

thing, If you hold the repairman certificate for a particular E-AB,  

it is my understanding that you can do the annuals on that airplane  

no matter who owns it in the future.



On Mar 7, 2007, at 8:19 AM, Harrison-Hutcheson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Getting set to send in paperwork to start the registration process  

 for my kit build CH701.  Need feedback, pros/cons about going the  

 Exp-Amateur Built (8150-8 or the Exp-LSA (8150-88A).  Items that  

 have crossed my mind include my own annual inspections and if/when  

 I sell the plane the ability of a non-AP new owner to do their  

 annual inspections.  Am I correct in the assumption that if I went  

 Exp-AB I could do my annuals but the new owner would need an AP to  

 do the inspections, and if I went Exp-LSA I would need to take the  

 "16 hour" course to do my annuals and any new non-AP owner could  

 also do annuals after passing the "16 hour" course?

	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive. 	




Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how difficult is the 16 hour course?



Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built from plans.

rickpitcher

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 76

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008.  http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/



You'll pay ~ $400 for the course in addition to the cost for the weekend: travel, lodging, food, etc.  Figure $500 to $750 total.  Still an outstanding bargain IMHO  http://www.rainbowaviation.com/16_hr__course.htm



If you happen to know an A&P in your area you might get 4 or 5 years worth of inspections for that much money, AND you'll have the benefit of having another set of eyes going over the airplane. I'll bet he'll find things that you overlooked or simply were not aware of.



All in all, I'd say it's a wash.



Rick Pitcher

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

 	  rickpitcher wrote: 	
		  It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008.  http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/



You'll pay ~ $400 for the course in addition to the cost for the weekend: travel, lodging, food, etc.  Figure $500 to $750 total.  Still an outstanding bargain IMHO  http://www.rainbowaviation.com/16_hr__course.htm



If you happen to know an A&P in your area you might get 4 or 5 years worth of inspections for that much money, AND you'll have the benefit of having another set of eyes going over the airplane. I'll bet he'll find things that you overlooked or simply were not aware of.



All in all, I'd say it's a wash.



Rick Pitcher 	




Are you saying after 1/2008 you can't even get a repairman's cert, or just can't get the ELSA after that point?

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

It isn't difficult to get the repairman's certificate for an E-AB. It  

is a separate process from the airworthiness application though. My  

DAR told me I needed to apply to the local FAA office after the Phase  

I testing was complete. I just had to show the FAA my builder log and  

turn in the application (FAA form 8610-2), I received the certificate  

a few weeks later. I haven't taken the 16 hour course so I don't know  

much about it. The EAA Sport Pilot section has information about  

where and when the 16 hour courses are offered. http:// 

www.sportpilot.org/1070215_sportair.html#P0_0



On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:26 AM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how  

 difficult is the 16 hour course?



 Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's  

 cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built  

 from plans.



 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

With my first build which was one of the "fat ultralights", the application for the repairman's certificate was accomplished at the same time as the airworthiness inspection and issuance of the phase 1 flight restrictions. The only thing that happened after the test flight hours had been completed was that I certified that fact to the FAA and I was officially granted the change to the phase 2 operating restrictions. 



My point is that I recommend doing the paperwork for both the plane and for your repairman's certificate all at the same time. It has been four years now so I don't remember all the form numbers and some of the process may have changed.



Dred



---- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 It isn't difficult to get the repairman's certificate for an E-AB. It  

 is a separate process from the airworthiness application though. My  

 DAR told me I needed to apply to the local FAA office after the Phase  

 I testing was complete. I just had to show the FAA my builder log and  

 turn in the application (FAA form 8610-2), I received the certificate  

 a few weeks later. I haven't taken the 16 hour course so I don't know  

 much about it. The EAA Sport Pilot section has information about  

 where and when the 16 hour courses are offered. http:// 

 www.sportpilot.org/1070215_sportair.html#P0_0

ricklach

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 127
Location: Kernville, Calif.

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Every post is correct. As a certified LSA Repairman (the 120 hour course) I can work on any Special or Expermental LSA including annuals. But I own an A/B expermental 701. So I can work on it BUT I can not do the annual safty inspection. I have to pay an A&P to do that.  Your post was asking about the the advantages, if any, between the Amateur built expermental and Expermental Light Sports. to me there are two big reasons to go E-LSA. 



1. Not only you, BUT if sold the new owner can do the annual safety inspection after taking the 16HR course.



2. The first reason makes the airplane far more valuable when put up for sale because the new buyer can do it all if he wants to. 



I know I wish my A/B expermental was an ELSA.



Rick

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

After 1/31/2008, the so called "fat ultralight" clause expires. This  

is the clause that people are using now to register their homebuilts  

as E-LSAs. After that deadline only kits that were sold by the kit  

manufacturer as E-LSA kits may be registered as E-LSA and they must  

be built exactly according to the plans. An E-LSA built under the  

normal rule may be modified only after it is registered. The 1/31/08  

deadline has nothing to do with the repairman certificate.

Since Zenith isn't selling E-LSA kits yet, a CH601XL under  

construction now can't  get registered as E-LSA after the deadline.

On Mar 7, 2007, at 10:52 AM, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 rickpitcher wrote:

> It's difficult to say which way is better, Exp-AB or Exp-LSA when  

> registering a new airplane that you have built yourself. There MAY  

> be an incentive to go with ELSA for the ability to get the  

> repairman's license with the 16 hour course, but this is a  

> temporary deal that is due to expire Jan, 2008.  http:// 

> www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/ 

> aircraft_registry/light_sport_aircraft/

>

 Are you saying after 1/2008 you can't even get a repairman's cert,  

 or just can't get the ELSA after that point?

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the Sport Pilot restrictions? 



If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't wise soul please confirm or correct me?



Dred



---- ricklach <rick(at)ravengear.us> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Every post is correct. As a certified LSA Repairman (the 120 hour course) I can work on any Special or Expermental LSA including annuals. But I own an A/B expermental 701. So I can work on it BUT I can not do the annual safty inspection. I have to pay an A&P to do that.  Your post was asking about the the advantages, if any, between the Amateur built expermental and Expermental Light Sports. to me there are two big reasons to go E-LSA. 

 

 1. Not only you, BUT if sold the new owner can do the annual safety inspection after taking the 16HR course.

 

 2. The first reason makes the airplane far more valuable when put up for sale because the new buyer can do it all if he wants to. 

 

 I know I wish my A/B expermental was an ELSA.

 

 Rick

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Any airplane that conforms to the LSA specifications can be flown by  

a sport pilot no matter what type of airwothiness certificate it has.  

Unfortunately, who can perform the annual inspections depends  

entirely on what type of airworthiness certificate the plane has,  

whether or not it conforms to LSA specifications is irrelevant.



Only the original builder who was granted the repairman certificate  

for that airplane or an A&P may perform the annuals on an E-AB. You  

must have the LSA repairman certificate with either the inspection  

rating (16 hour course) or the maintenance rating (120 hour course)  

or and A&P certificate to do the annuals on an E-LSA. The 16 hour  

inspection rating only applies to E-LSA, not to any other  

airworthiness certificate.



On Mar 7, 2007, at 11:36 AM, <dredmoody(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane  

 is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA  

 specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the  

 Sport Pilot restrictions?



 If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner  

 take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as  

 it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm  

 sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't  

 wise soul please confirm or correct me?

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Thanks Bryan,



   That explains the increased resale value issue related to E LSA certification.



Dred



---- Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Any airplane that conforms to the LSA specifications can be flown by  

 a sport pilot no matter what type of airwothiness certificate it has.  

 Unfortunately, who can perform the annual inspections depends  

 entirely on what type of airworthiness certificate the plane has,  

 whether or not it conforms to LSA specifications is irrelevant.

 

 Only the original builder who was granted the repairman certificate  

 for that airplane or an A&P may perform the annuals on an E-AB. You  

 must have the LSA repairman certificate with either the inspection  

 rating (16 hour course) or the maintenance rating (120 hour course)  

 or and A&P certificate to do the annuals on an E-LSA. The 16 hour  

 inspection rating only applies to E-LSA, not to any other  

 airworthiness certificate.

 

 On Mar 7, 2007, at 11:36 AM, <dredmoody(at)cox.net> wrote:

 

 > 

 >

 > Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane  

 > is registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA  

 > specifications, that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the  

 > Sport Pilot restrictions?

 >

 > If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner  

 > take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as  

 > it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm  

 > sure this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't  

 > wise soul please confirm or correct me?

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Hi Ed,



Close, but not quite right.  This is really confusing stuff.



A pilot who is limited to Sport Pilot limits must fly a plane that 

conforms to the LSA definition.  It makes absolutely no difference 

what sort of airworthiness certificate the plane has for this purpose.



It is a different story when it comes to annual condition 

inspections.  In this case it does matter what sort of certificate 

the plane has.  A plane with an LSA certificate requires someone with 

either the 16 hour course or an A&P license to sign off the annual 

inspection.  (There may be another intermediate license this mechanic 

can have, but I never got interested in this particular path.)  A 

plane with an E-AB certificate requires an A&P to sign off annual 

inspections or the original builder if he applied for and received 

the repairman's certificate for that particular plane.  For the LSA, 

a new owner can also do the inspection with appropriate training (16 

hour course) but there is no second chance for the E-AB certified 

plane - only the original builder can get the repairman's certificate 

for this one.



Go figure.



Paul

XL fuselage

At 08:36 AM 3/7/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Didn't someone who understands the FAA regs say that if the plane is 

registered Exp AB but it also conforms to the LSA specifications, 

that it can be flown by a Sport Pilot under the Sport Pilot restrictions?



If that is correct (and I'm not sure it is), couldn't a new owner 

take the 16 hour course and do the annuals on the plane as long as 

it was flown within the Sport Pilot and E LSA restrictions? I'm sure 

this has been seriously beat to death already but can a gov't wise 

soul please confirm or correct me?



Dred


	


-

MaxNr(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

How about this? If I register as E-LSA so that subsequent owners only need the 16 hour course, could I ALSO get a repairman's certificate so that I may do condition inspections with or without the 16 hour course? E-LSA should not take away a logical privilege.

 

 Bob from Pace,FL

 xl/Lyc

**************************************

 AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

From EAA's FAQ for the HB repairman's certificate.



Be a U.S. citizen or an individual of a foreign country who has been admitted for permanent residence in the United States. 

Be 18 years of age or older. 

Be the "primary builder" of the aircraft. 

Be able to demonstrate to the FAA inspector your ability to perform condition inspections and to determine whether the subject aircraft is in a condition for safe operation.



It's my understanding that the last part pretty much happens during the inspection process and that with many DARs it comes down to you built it you can inspect it.

[quote="ashontz}

Is it difficult to get the repairman's certificate and how difficult is the 16 hour course?



Seems to me it would be a no-brainer to just issue a repairman's cert to the guy who built the damn thing, especially if it's built from plans.[/quote]

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

What does logic have to do with it? We're dealing with the government.



On Mar 7, 2007, at 3:27 PM, MaxNr(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   How about this? If I register as E-LSA so that subsequent owners  

 only need the 16 hour course, could I ALSO get a repairman's  

 certificate so that I may do condition inspections with or without  

 the 16 hour course? E-LSA should not take away a logical privilege.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

aprazer

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Boise, Idaho

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Re: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

Another benefit that was not mentioned if you register the bird as ESLA is the 5 versus 40 hour fly-off time, use the bird for instruction, ete...



If anyone is interested we (Nampa Idaho's EAA and Rainbow Aviation) are putting together a 16 hour course in Nampa (just outside Boise) this spring. We need 16 people -- anyone interested contact me off line (at) aprazer(at)cableone.net

Do not archive

Mack

_________________
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho

MaxNr(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Faa registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

part2_c56.fa5916d.33207a2f_boundary--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

You can offer training to students in an E-LSA and rent out an E-LSA  

for training purposes but only until January 31, 2010. You can't do  

either in an E-AB. If you use your E-LSA for training student pilots,  

the plane will require 100 hour inspections as well as annual  

inspections. the 100 hour inspections must be done by a repairman  

with the maintenance rating or and A&P, the inspection rating isn't  

good enough.



http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid 5

On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:14 AM, aprazer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Another benefit that was not mentioned if you register the bird as  

 ESLA is the 5 versus 40 hour fly-off time, use the bird for  

 instruction, ete...


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

cscsail(at)gmavt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: FAA registration - 8150-88 or 8150-88A

So, is there a down side if you register a 701 as E-LSA? If I understand 

what's been said properly, if I register my plane as E-LSA and it were 

properly equipped it could, for instance, be flown IFR by a properly rated 

pilot, it could be used for LSA instruction, it could be maintained by 

someone other than the builder (with a repairman's certificate) who has 

taken the LSA maintenance course, it would probably have a higher resale 

value, etc.

I'm just wondering why I or anyone else would not go the LSA route?

Gordon

---

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