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jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

I find it is a likely to become increasingly cumbersome obtaining a 

new medical even while my doctors tell me I am quite capable of 

operating an aircraft.  I also have little interest in operating my 

Fox at night.  The Sport Pilot route seems to be attractive for 

me.  I am now 69.  I would need to replace my NSI Turbo and CAP and 

have the aircraft re-inspected.  The following would seem to make 

that permissible for Sport Aircraft use.



This may be old news to Kitfox Listers, but it is new to me.  I came 

across this on the AOPA Web site.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have built or plan on building an experimental amateur-built 

aircraft that meets the definition of light sport aircraft (LSA). How 

does the sport pilot rule affect me?

    * The aircraft remains an experimental amateur-built aircraft. 

You cannot change the aircraft airworthiness certificate to SLSA or ELSA.

    * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to 

meet the definition of LSA.

You may operate as pilot in command of the aircraft as a light sport 

aircraft if you hold a sport pilot certificate or are exercising 

sport pilot privileges.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Have any of you done this?  Any comments?  Of course this would put 

me back to looking for a new engine.



Jim Crowder

aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

From what I understand you still can not legally use a Fox under sport 

if it has EVER had a listed gross weight over 1320 pounds. This is nuts, 

but I don't think it has been changed yet. If anyone knows different we 

need to know. The Fox is the perfect sport plane, leave it to the 

burrocrats to mess it up.

Jim Crowder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I find it is a likely to become increasingly cumbersome obtaining a 

new medical even while my doctors tell me I am quite capable of 

operating an aircraft.  I also have little interest in operating my 

Fox at night.  The Sport Pilot route seems to be attractive for 

me.  I am now 69.  I would need to replace my NSI Turbo and CAP and 

have the aircraft re-inspected.  The following would seem to make 

that permissible for Sport Aircraft use.

This may be old news to Kitfox Listers, but it is new to me.  I came 

across this on the AOPA Web site.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have built or plan on building an experimental amateur-built 

aircraft that meets the definition of light sport aircraft (LSA). How 

does the sport pilot rule affect me?

    * The aircraft remains an experimental amateur-built aircraft. 

You cannot change the aircraft airworthiness certificate to SLSA or ELSA.

    * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to 

meet the definition of LSA.

You may operate as pilot in command of the aircraft as a light sport 

aircraft if you hold a sport pilot certificate or are exercising 

sport pilot privileges.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Have any of you done this?  Any comments?  Of course this would put 

me back to looking for a new engine.

Jim Crowder

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

I was under the impression that a Sport Pilot could fly any aircraft that 

meets the SP requirements...



Andrew

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Sport Pilot

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 19:51:18 -0700






I find it is a likely to become increasingly cumbersome obtaining a

new medical even while my doctors tell me I am quite capable of

operating an aircraft.  I also have little interest in operating my

Fox at night.  The Sport Pilot route seems to be attractive for

me.  I am now 69.  I would need to replace my NSI Turbo and CAP and

have the aircraft re-inspected.  The following would seem to make

that permissible for Sport Aircraft use.



This may be old news to Kitfox Listers, but it is new to me.  I came

across this on the AOPA Web site.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have built or plan on building an experimental amateur-built

aircraft that meets the definition of light sport aircraft (LSA). How

does the sport pilot rule affect me?

     * The aircraft remains an experimental amateur-built aircraft.

You cannot change the aircraft airworthiness certificate to SLSA or ELSA.

     * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to

meet the definition of LSA.

You may operate as pilot in command of the aircraft as a light sport

aircraft if you hold a sport pilot certificate or are exercising

sport pilot privileges.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Have any of you done this?  Any comments?  Of course this would put

me back to looking for a new engine.



Jim Crowder

aldaniels(at)fmtc.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

You can, its just that if the plane has not continually been listed with 

a max gross weight of 1320 or less it does not meet the SP requirements.



Andrew Matthaey wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I was under the impression that a Sport Pilot could fly any aircraft that 

meets the SP requirements...



Andrew

  



>From: Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net>

>Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

>To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

>Subject: Sport Pilot

>Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 19:51:18 -0700

>

>

>

>I find it is a likely to become increasingly cumbersome obtaining a

>new medical even while my doctors tell me I am quite capable of

>operating an aircraft.  I also have little interest in operating my

>Fox at night.  The Sport Pilot route seems to be attractive for

>me.  I am now 69.  I would need to replace my NSI Turbo and CAP and

>have the aircraft re-inspected.  The following would seem to make

>that permissible for Sport Aircraft use.

>

>This may be old news to Kitfox Listers, but it is new to me.  I came

>across this on the AOPA Web site.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>I have built or plan on building an experimental amateur-built

>aircraft that meets the definition of light sport aircraft (LSA). How

>does the sport pilot rule affect me?

>    * The aircraft remains an experimental amateur-built aircraft.

>You cannot change the aircraft airworthiness certificate to SLSA or ELSA.

>    * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to

>meet the definition of LSA.

>You may operate as pilot in command of the aircraft as a light sport

>aircraft if you hold a sport pilot certificate or are exercising

>sport pilot privileges.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

>Have any of you done this?  Any comments?  Of course this would put

>me back to looking for a new engine.

>

>Jim Crowder

>

>

>

>    

>

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:37 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

In a message dated 3/8/2006 9:20:56 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail.com writes:



I was  under the impression that a Sport Pilot could fly any aircraft that 

meets  the SP requirements...



Andrew

 

I believe if the KF designed for a MAX wt of 950 and since it was flown off  

at that it complies...

 

If it was originally designed at over the max weight, you can not build it  

to and test fly it to a lower wt to comply....

 

I know certain Luscombe comply and some dont.  However, no matter  what you 

cant take stuff off  one to make it comply.....  I  believe the Luscombes with 

full electric dont? 

 

That's my take...... 

 

Im sure a FISDO can quickly clarify for ya

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

AOPA Says:

 	  Quote: 	
		  * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to

meet the definition of LSA.


	


This seems pretty clear to me.  Is AOPA incorrect?



Jim Crowder

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

If that is what AOPA says, you can take it to the bank...they're pretty good 

with that legal mumbo-jumbo...a whole lot better, I say, than any FnAA FSDO 

out there (who don't know their butts from a rat-hole, i.e. ask two 

inspectors, get two answers...)!



Andrew

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sport Pilot

Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 20:53:23 -0700






AOPA Says:

 >* You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to

 >meet the definition of LSA.



This seems pretty clear to me.  Is AOPA incorrect?



Jim Crowder

jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

I do not know if AOPA is in correct, but I do know that for an airplane to be qualified for Sport Pilot it must have been originally certified and continually maintained at a maximum gross weight of 1320 lbs. and other criteria such as a fixed pitch or ground adjustable prop.  For example, if a Kitfox ever had an inflight adjustable prop it can never be legally flown by someone flying under sport pilot rules.  I know it does not make sense, but that is the rule.  Let's be glad that the rule is there, though it is not perfect.

   

  Jimmie



Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net> wrote:

  



AOPA Says:

 	  Quote: 	
		  * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to

meet the definition of LSA.


	


This seems pretty clear to me. Is AOPA incorrect?



Jim Crowder

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: Sport Pilot

At 09:31 PM 3/8/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I do not know if AOPA is in correct, but I do know that for an 

airplane to be qualified for Sport Pilot it must have been 

originally certified and continually maintained at a maximum gross 

weight of 1320 lbs. and other criteria such as a fixed pitch or 

ground adjustable prop.  For example, if a Kitfox ever had an 

inflight adjustable prop it can never be legally flown by someone 

flying under sport pilot rules.  I know it does not make sense, but 

that is the rule.  Let's be glad that the rule is there, though it 

is not perfect.



   Jimmie


	


I know that this is what I have always read on the Kitfox List, but 

AOPA  says as manufacturer you can change it.  Here is the link to 

their Web site.  It's in the membership section, so it may not work 

for non members but give it a try.  It's a long piece and is near the 

bottom.  It says at the bottom of the page it was updated today.  I 

have no idea what they updated.  Surely AOPA has something to base 

this on.  As we all know, it does make sense.



http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_faq.html



Jim Crowder

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

AOPA certainly has clout, however, the bottom line is you need to get past the FAA. I am currently in the process of re-registering my Kitfox IV (still kit) . I purchased the kit from a previous owner who had already registered it outside of the LSA rules. I asked as I was on the phone with the FAA and she made it very clear that since this plane/kit had already been registered, they would not permit me to register it LSA.   There it is...straight from the horses mouth. I'm sure some might still want to beat this dead horse though. <g>

  Dan B

  www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html



Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net> wrote:

  



At 09:31 PM 3/8/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I do not know if AOPA is in correct, but I do know that for an 

airplane to be qualified for Sport Pilot it must have been 

originally certified and continually maintained at a maximum gross 

weight of 1320 lbs. and other criteria such as a fixed pitch or 

ground adjustable prop. For example, if a Kitfox ever had an 

inflight adjustable prop it can never be legally flown by someone 

flying under sport pilot rules. I know it does not make sense, but 

that is the rule. Let's be glad that the rule is there, though it 

is not perfect.



 Jimmie


	


I know that this is what I have always read on the Kitfox List, but 

AOPA says as manufacturer you can change it. Here is the link to 

their Web site. It's in the membership section, so it may not work 

for non members but give it a try. It's a long piece and is near the 

bottom. It says at the bottom of the page it was updated today. I 

have no idea what they updated. Surely AOPA has something to base 

this on. As we all know, it does make sense.



http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_faq.html



Jim Crowder

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Dan,



What makes it non-compliant for flight by a Sport 

Pilot?  Why do you want it registered as an LSA?



It seems there must be confusion over having 

a 'registered' LSA and what type of aircraft a Sport 

Pilot can fly.

--- Original Message ---

From: Dan Billingsley <dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sport Pilot



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<dan(at)azshowersolutions.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

AOPA certainly has clout, however, the bottom line 

is you need to get past the FAA. I am currently in 
	


the process of re-registering my Kitfox IV (still 

kit) . I purchased the kit from a previous owner who 

had already registered it outside of the LSA rules.

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Jimmie,



Any prop change is a major that usually requires a 

new test phase as well as new airworthiness 

documentation.  I can't imagine that going through 

that process and having a legal airworthy aircraft 

that meets the limitations of a Sport Pilot rating 

could NOT be flown by a Sport Pilot??  Where is that 

documented?



Thanks,



Ted

--- Original Message ---

From: Jimmie Blackwell <jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sport Pilot



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglobal.net>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

I do not know if AOPA is in correct, but I do know 

that for an airplane to be qualified for Sport Pilot 
	


it must have been originally certified and 

continually maintained at a maximum gross weight of 

1320 lbs. and other criteria such as a fixed pitch or 

ground adjustable prop.  For example, if a Kitfox 

ever had an inflight adjustable prop it can never be 

legally flown by someone flying under sport pilot 

rules.  I know it does not make sense, but that is 

the rule.  Let's be glad that the rule is there, 

though it is not perfect.

 	  Quote: 	
		     

  Jimmie



Jim Crowder <jimlc(at)att.net> wrote:

  



AOPA Says:

>* You can modify your aircraft (if you're the 

manufacturer) to
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >meet the definition of LSA.



This seems pretty clear to me. Is AOPA incorrect?



Jim Crowder

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FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Here's the rule if anyone really wants to research.



http://www.sportpilot.org/sportpilot_rule.pdf



You don't have to register an Experimental as an LSA 

unless you want to limit the aircraft to LSA rules.  

A Sport Pilot can fly anything that complies with LSA 

definitions -- it doesn't have to be registered LSA.

--- Original Message ---

From: Aerobatics(at)aol.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sport Pilot



 	  Quote: 	
		  



In a message dated 3/8/2006 9:20:56 P.M. Central 

Standard Time,  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  spaghettiohead(at)hotmail.com writes:



I was  under the impression that a Sport Pilot could 

fly any aircraft that 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  meets  the SP requirements...



Andrew

 

I believe if the KF designed for a MAX wt of 950 and 

since it was flown off  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  at that it complies...

 

If it was originally designed at over the max 

weight, you can not build it  
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  to and test fly it to a lower wt to comply....

 

I know certain Luscombe comply and some dont.  

However, no matter  what you 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  cant take stuff off  one to make it comply.....  I  

believe the Luscombes with 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  full electric dont? 

 

That's my take...... 

 

Im sure a FISDO can quickly clarify for ya





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FAQ,

List

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jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

At 07:08 AM 3/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dan,



What makes it non-compliant for flight by a Sport

Pilot?  Why do you want it registered as an LSA?



It seems there must be confusion over having

a 'registered' LSA and what type of aircraft a Sport

Pilot can fly.


	


Correct.



Jim Crowder

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

At 06:08 AM 3/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  AOPA certainly has clout, however, the bottom line is you need to 

get past the FAA. I am currently in the process of re-registering my 

Kitfox IV (still kit) . I purchased the kit from a previous owner 

who had already registered it outside of the LSA rules. I asked as I 

was on the phone with the FAA and she made it very clear that since 

this plane/kit had already been registered, they would not permit me 

to register it LSA.   There it is...straight from the horses mouth. 

I'm sure some might still want to beat this dead horse though. <g>

   Dan B


	


That is correct.  What AOPA and the regs say is that it does not need 

to be registered as a LSA--just fall within the limits for an 

LSA.  If it does, you can fly it with LSA privileges.  I as the 

manufacturer, I would need to modify it by changing to a fixed pitch 

or ground adjustable prop and lower my weight limit to 1320.  The 

plane does not need to be an LSA, just meet the same requirements.



Jim Crowder

jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

It is documented in Part 1 of the Sport Pilot ruling under Definitions and Abbreviations.

  The definition says in part, "Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:  (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a glider".

  I certainly agree that one should be able to change an in-flight adjustable prop to a fixed pitch prop on a Model IV and fly it under sport pilot rules.  However, the above rule is pretty clear and my conversations with AOPA and EAA indicate that the FAA has no intention of backing off.  

  I think the important thing for anyone considering buying an airplane that they think is ok for a sport pilot to fly should check the history to make sure as to how the plane was originally certified.

  Hope this helps.

  Jimmie

flier <FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Jimmie,

Any prop change is a major that usually requires a 

new test phase as well as new airworthiness 

documentation. I can't imagine that going through 

that process and having a legal airworthy aircraft 

that meets the limitations of a Sport Pilot rating 

could NOT be flown by a Sport Pilot?? Where is that 

documented?

Thanks,

Ted

--- Original Message ---

From: Jimmie Blackwell 

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sport Pilot

 	  Quote: 	

 	  Quote: 	

I do not know if AOPA is in correct, but I do know 

that for an airplane to be qualified for Sport Pilot 

it must have been originally certified and 

continually maintained at a maximum gross weight of 

1320 lbs. and other criteria such as a fixed pitch or 

ground adjustable prop. For example, if a Kitfox 

ever had an inflight adjustable prop it can never be 

legally flown by someone flying under sport pilot 

rules. I know it does not make sense, but that is 

the rule. Let's be glad that the rule is there, 

though it is not perfect.

 	  Quote: 	

 Jimmie

Jim Crowder wrote:

AOPA Says:

>* You can modify your aircraft (if you're the 

manufacturer) to

 	  Quote: 	
		  >meet the definition of LSA.

This seems pretty clear to me. Is AOPA incorrect?

Jim Crowder

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FAQ,

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alnanarthur(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Jim,



You might  talk  to your local Flight Standards Office about de- 

registering the aircraft and using it for parts to build a completely  

different experimental aircraft.

Allan & Nancy Arthur (Sport pilots)

Kitfox 5, N40AA (1232# Gross wt,)

Rotax 912s, Warpdrive 3 blade

Byron Airport (C83)  Hanger C8

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

Yes.  It will never be a light sport aircraft.  It doesn't need to 

be.  And yes, I will probably need to start a new fly off as set by 

the inspector approving the changes.  But, I will be able to fly it 

under sport pilot privileges just as I could a Piper J-3 listed below 

which also will never be a light sport aircraft.  I will do more 

checking, but as of now I plan to go for it.  The following are 

quotes from the AOPA Web page and all reference FAA  regs.  I plan to 

call my previous inspector and discuss the changes and make sure he 

will allow me as manufacturer to make them.  If he says no, I will 

try another inspector.



Jim Crowder

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The aircraft remains an experimental amateur-built aircraft. You 

cannot change the aircraft airworthiness certificate to SLSA or ELSA.

    * You can modify your aircraft (if you're the manufacturer) to 

meet the definition of LSA.

You may operate as pilot in command of the aircraft as a light sport 

aircraft if you hold a sport pilot certificate or are exercising 

sport pilot privileges.

...................



What types of airplanes can I fly?



There are currently more than 21,000 certified airplanes in the 

standard airworthiness category from seven manufacturers that qualify 

as light sport aircraft. Standard category airplanes you can fly 

include, but are not limited to:

    * Piper J-2 and J-3

    * Aeronca Champ

    * Luscombe 8, 8A, 8B, and 8C

    * Taylorcraft BC, BCS, and BC-65

    * Ercoupe 415C and 415 CD

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

At 08:27 AM 3/9/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Jim,



You might  talk  to your local Flight Standards Office about de-

registering the aircraft and using it for parts to build a completely

different experimental aircraft.


	


This was my previous plan.  It now appears unnecessary.



Jim Crowder

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Sport Pilot

This can be a heated discussion as I have had my fare share of discussion

about this...



Lets make sure that we do not confuse:



Sport Pilot is the persons license and has nothing to do with aircraft.

Other then you can fly one.



Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) is the Aircrafts license (Certificate Category)

	Under this category is:	LSA

				ELSA

				SLSA



If you are building an aircraft that qualifies as AB I would not recommend

registering in any of the above categories. Keep it in the Experimental AB

category. As long as it meets the definition of what a Sport Pilot can fly

then it can be flown by a Sport Pilot or above.



As for the Gross weight... If you are flying a Model IV or earlier model

then it's not an issue... If you are flying a Model 5 or newer that has been

registered at a higher then 1320 Gross then it's up for discussion..

Personally... I feel it can be done and without too much headache. A little

hoop jumping maybe... and this is where it gets heated..

Fly Safe !!

John McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"

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